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Author
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Topic: Misconceptions in Relativity
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
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SO writes: When your mom screems, does she think of you or, me at night? Wow, that is so mature. Get out of the basement, go to college and learn what real science is all about. BTW, Split, Croatia was one of my favorite ports to visit. Beautiful city. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 3664 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: 06-16-2005
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Why don't you ask your mom how strong it is? FFS, if you're going to insult, please at least try to make sense...
Explain why Why? You have no interest in learning. I only teach those that actually show a desire to learn. You're far more happy trying to tell a scientist, whose field happens to be Relativity, that he knows nothing about Relativity. And that's quite funny...
When your mom screems, does she think of you or, me at night?  see, you can do it. That almost makes sense... Now, once more, 'cos everyone here missed your answer to this one: Tell me, when the physicist-engineers designed the LHC, did they use the mathematics of Special Relativty, or your bullshit? Edited by cavediver, : No reason given. Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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Son Goku
Inactive Member
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Message 93 of 141 (516524)
07-25-2009 9:10 PM
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Time dilation
Smooth Operator, it is unrealistic to think that time dilation is due to some slowing down of a clock's internal mechanisms. There is time dilation due to relative motion and gravitational time dilation, both of these produce different effects so they could not really come from the same clock based mechanism. Also think of particles which have been observed to have their time dilate. They are too simple to have internal workings which could slow down.
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
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Message 94 of 141 (516526)
07-25-2009 9:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Son Goku
07-25-2009 9:10 PM
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Re: Time dilation
Son Goku writes: Also think of particles which have been observed to have their time dilate Ahh that is right, isn't the neutron's half-life time dilated due to its speed/energy thus resulting in a more stable atom that would have otherwise decayed in 10 minutes? I am probably speaking from ignorance here so correct me if I am wrong (which I probably am).
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Son Goku, posted 07-25-2009 9:10 PM | | Son Goku has not replied |
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Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5134 days) Posts: 630 Joined: 07-24-2009
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quote:
Without the time dilation phenomena as described in SR, the GPS navigation and locating services would be an impossibility. It is only by taking time dialation into effect that we can achieve accurate localization using the global positionitioning satellite system in all types of navigational applications from the military to the Tom Tom in your SUV.
This is obviously not true. What actually is being used in the GPS navigation is the Sagnac Effect. Sagnac effect - Wikipedia
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The aether hypothesis has been dead for over 100 years. Only crackpots and nutcases continue to breath life into this idea.
Not so, Einsten himslef said that Relativity can not work without the aether.
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... with the new theory of electrodynamics we are rather forced to have an aether.
Dirac sea - Wikipedia I'm sorry but it seem you are the nutcase throwback who is living 100 years in the past.
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Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5134 days) Posts: 630 Joined: 07-24-2009
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quote:
Wow, that is so mature. Get out of the basement, go to college and learn what real science is all about.
Excuse me, but he was the one who was rude to me first. So why should I not give him back what he deserves?
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BTW, Split, Croatia was one of my favorite ports to visit. Beautiful city.
Thanks!
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Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5134 days) Posts: 630 Joined: 07-24-2009
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Message 97 of 141 (516533)
07-25-2009 10:36 PM
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Reply to: Message 92 by cavediver
07-25-2009 5:58 PM
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quote:
FFS, if you're going to insult, please at least try to make sense...
You made even less sense when you insulted me...
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Why? You have no interest in learning. I only teach those that actually show a desire to learn. You're far more happy trying to tell a scientist, whose field happens to be Relativity, that he knows nothing about Relativity. And that's quite funny...
There is nothing to teach in Relativity since it is one big logical fallacy.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 92 by cavediver, posted 07-25-2009 5:58 PM | | cavediver has not replied |
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Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5134 days) Posts: 630 Joined: 07-24-2009
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Message 98 of 141 (516535)
07-25-2009 10:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 93 by Son Goku
07-25-2009 9:10 PM
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Re: Time dilation
quote:
Smooth Operator, it is unrealistic to think that time dilation is due to some slowing down of a clock's internal mechanisms.
Why? Is it unrealistic to say that when you move your hand through water that it is you hand that is slowing down, and not the time? If you move your hand through the air with the same force it will go faster. Does that mean that time is going faster?
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There is time dilation due to relative motion and gravitational time dilation, both of these produce different effects so they could not really come from the same clock based mechanism.
Couldn't gravity actually be effecting the clock's mechanism?
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Also think of particles which have been observed to have their time dilate. They are too simple to have internal workings which could slow down.
Again, maybe the particels themselves are slowed down, and not the time. How do you know it's time itslef?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 93 by Son Goku, posted 07-25-2009 9:10 PM | | Son Goku has replied |
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4737 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: 02-28-2008
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There Can Be Only One
What actually is being used in the GPS navigation is the Sagnac Effect. Did all the other effects that GPS have to take into account battle it out until there was only one? Are each man's thoughts and dreams the Sagnac Effects to know? (Sci-fi culture reference.) GPS takes into account both the quickening (SR) and the slowing (GR) of time. Awfully strange that relativity gives the correct answers to both in part per billion if it's wrong. Lucky guess? AbE:
SO, in message 98, writes: Why? Is it unrealistic to say that when you move your hand through water that it is you hand that is slowing down, and not the time? If you move your hand through the air with the same force it will go faster. Does that mean that time is going faster? Gads, you're dumb use of hand waving to make your point is really quite humorous. Edited by lyx2no, : Gratuitous insult. Edited by lyx2no, : Modify gratuitous insult.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson
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Smooth Operator
Member (Idle past 5134 days) Posts: 630 Joined: 07-24-2009
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Message 100 of 141 (516540)
07-25-2009 11:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 99 by lyx2no
07-25-2009 10:53 PM
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Re: There Can Be Only One
quote:
Did all the other effects that GPS have to take into account battle it out until there was only one? Are each man's thoughts and dreams the Sagnac Effects to know? (Sci-fi culture reference.) GPS takes into account both the quickening (SR) and the slowing (GR) of time. Awfully strange that relativity gives the correct answers to both in part per billion if it's wrong. Lucky guess?
There are no Relativistic effects GPS has to take account of. They actually take geocentric ECEF frame of reference to measure time. Earth-centered, Earth-fixed coordinate system - Wikipedia
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 99 by lyx2no, posted 07-25-2009 10:53 PM | | lyx2no has replied |
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4737 days) Posts: 1277 From: A vast, undifferentiated plane. Joined: 02-28-2008
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Re: There Can Be Only One
There are no Relativistic effects GPS has to take account of. If there are no relativistic effect why do we only get the right answers when we pretend they do? Do the system operators refer to a mathacaid pay schedule and see that they will make more money if they make Lorentz transformations?
They actually take geocentric ECEF frame of reference to measure time. ECEF has no time measure of any kind associated with it any more than does the letter and number grid in the board game BATTLESHIP. I CAN GO INTO THE PAST
TO SINK YOUR BATTLESHIP FROM THE FUTURE Do you understand anything you read? I'd not heard of ECEF till your mention of it and in two minutes knew that you were full of it. From your own wiki reference: [ECEF] represents positions as an X, Y, and Z coordinate. The point (0,0,0) denotes the mass center of the earth, hence the name Earth-Centered. The z-axis is defined as being parallel to the earth rotational axes, pointing towards north. The x-axis intersects the sphere of the earth at the 0 latitude, 0 longitude. Where is the T axis?
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.
Thomas Jefferson
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
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Re: There Can Be Only One
SO writes: There are no Relativistic effects GPS has to take account of. You really need to stop googling and wiking shit that you have no clue what you are talking about.
SO writes: They actually take geocentric ECEF frame of reference to measure time. The ECEF is the frame of reference used to determine x, y, z positioning. In fact, ECEF relies on taking into effect relativistic time-dilation in order for the satellites to determine precise positioning data as shown here
General relativity in the global positioning system by Physicist by Harvard University Professor and Physicist Dr. Neil Ashby
No webpage found at provided URL: Real-World Relativity: The GPS Navigation System by Dr. Richard W. Pogge, Professor of Astronomy and Astrophysics at Ohio State University
Global Positioning
System by Dr. Edwin F. Taylor who received a PhD in Physics at Harvard and is a professor of physics at MIT.
Accuracy of Time Transfer in Satellite Systems' by the National Research Council (U.S.). Air Force Studies Board. Committee on Accuracy of Time Transfer in Satellite Systems, Clifford M. Will BTW, the Sagnac effect does not negate relativistic time-dilation but rather is predicted by SR as shown below:
The Sagnac Effect Despite the ease and clarity with which special relativity accounts for the Sagnac effect, one occasionally sees claims that this effect entails a conflict with the principles of special relativity. The usual claim is that the Sagnac effect somehow falsifies the invariance of light speed with respect to all inertial coordinate systems. Of course, it does no such thing, as is obvious from the fact that the simple description of an arbitrary Sagnac device given above is based on isotropic light speed with respect to one particular system of inertial coordinates, and all other inertial coordinate systems are related to this one by Lorentz transformations, which are defined as the transformations that preserve light speed. Hence no description of a Sagnac device in terms of any system of inertial coordinates can possibly entail non-isotropic light speed, nor can any such description yield physically observable results different from those derived above (which are known to agree with experiment). also Wikipedia: Status of special relativity writes: The Sagnac effect, a phenomenon that is taken in to account in GPS synchronisation procedures, is predicted by both special relativity and Galilean relativity. To dispute General and Special Relativity is to go against the likes of Stephen Hawking, Einstein and the rest of the scientific community. SR has been proven not just by direct observation and experimentation but by application and not just by GPS but by other scientific applications such as the Gravity Probe A satellite launched in 1976 and the Hafele-Keating experiment, which used atomic clocks in circumnavigating aircraft to test general relativity and special relativity together ( Tests of general relativity). Nice try, try again.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
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Message 103 of 141 (516543)
07-26-2009 12:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 101 by lyx2no
07-26-2009 12:02 AM
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Re: There Can Be Only One
ECEF has no time measure of any kind associated with it any more than does the letter and number grid in the board game BATTLESHIP. GPS ECEF actually relies on taking into account relativistic time-dilation in order for the GPS satellites to synchronize precisely (we are talking about micro-seconds) in order to get accurate GPS positions to less than 50 feet discrepency. How do I know? I am in the Navy and rely on GPS to get accurate navigation fixes for the ship. Military GPS is a lot more accurate than civilian GPS readings (no I will not tell you how accurate). GPS is actually owned by the DoD. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 101 by lyx2no, posted 07-26-2009 12:02 AM | | lyx2no has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 119 by lyx2no, posted 07-26-2009 9:39 AM | | DevilsAdvocate has not replied |
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
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Re: Time dilation
SO, I am actually curious why you are so opposed to SR and GR theories? Does it have something to do with religion? Or is there some other motive here? Just curious.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
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DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3122 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: 06-05-2008
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SO writes: Not so, Einsten himslef said that Relativity can not work without the aether. quote: "with the new theory of electrodynamics we are rather forced to have an aether." Actually Paul Dirac said this not Einstein. Dirac was referring to a sea of virtual quantum particles not a true 'aether' or 'quintessence' as defined by the Greeks and later naturalists and scientists. In this respect, yes and no, in the fact that the fabric of the universe consists of a sea of quantum particles (matter) popping into and out of existence but is it a real tangible elemental substance as described by earlier theorists, no. Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.Dr. Carl Sagan
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