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Author Topic:   Claims of God Being Omnipotent in the Bible
h1a8
Junior Member (Idle past 3938 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 01-21-2009


Message 226 of 381 (498189)
02-09-2009 12:36 AM
Reply to: Message 223 by Blue Jay
02-01-2009 7:02 PM


Re: Yahweh speaks with forked tongue
Thanks for the clarification.
My fault completely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Blue Jay, posted 02-01-2009 7:02 PM Blue Jay has not yet responded

  
h1a8
Junior Member (Idle past 3938 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 01-21-2009


Message 227 of 381 (498196)
02-09-2009 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by DevilsAdvocate
02-01-2009 8:51 PM


Re: Bible seldoms says what you would like it to
Um, what mercy is being shown? This eternal torture in hell according to the Bible is the fate of the vast majority of humanity is it not?
According to some banned books of the bible (see banned from the bible) those who will go to hell will eventually get out. So shhhhh (don't tell). I'm just kidding. Also some interpret hell in the bible as a place where one dies for good (cease to exist in any form). This too is like an eternal punishment.

But mercy is mercy. Mercy isn't necessarily letting someone get off scott free.
If the courts sentence someone to 50 years instead of 50 years and 1 day then they showed mercy.

God showed mercy by having Jesus die for our sins. Thus we have a better chance to not go to hell than we would if He didn't. This is still mercy no matter how small you think it is.

He didn't? Than why put it there in the first place? This is equivalent of putting a box of matches in front of a toddler and saying do not touch and walking out of the room and returning to find the house burnt down and then punishing the child (if they survive). Where is God's moral responsibility in this act? Is he not the more culpible moral agent in this story not the freshly minted and inexperience persona's of Adam and Eve?

God set this all up in grand scheme of things in order to transform man into the beings He want us to become. He could've have made us that way from the beginning, but that would be equivalent of having a robot worship and love you. If the angels, who were created good, can be wicked then mankind can as well. God knew this and He knew it was just a matter of time before man showed his wickedness. So he knew his grand plan even before it started.

God has supreme power of life and death (we don't), so him putting anything around that can hurt us is okay as long as his will gets accomplished.

As for punishment, God had to set an example. If He didn't (by punishment) then man has absolutely no reason to obey God and all control to transform man is gone. The punishment is just a form of control, mercy, and a transformation device.

And you, yourself do not provide evidence that falsifies this statement as well. So your statment commenting that Brians statements are baseless, are themselves baseless as well. If you want to back up your statement, than you should start a new topic and provide evidence supporting your statements. BTW, if you do I will provide evidence supporting Brian's assertions as well.
Brian was the one making claims, not me. He said that man was already going to die whether he ate from the tree of knowledge or not. I simply asked him to prove this. He didn't. Thus what he said was baseless.
Um, I think Brian was saying that the God (Yahweh, Elohim, El-Shaddai, whatever) of the Bible is a mytholical figure and thus it makes no difference what his actions in the Bible are anyways not that there is a real God and that he actually lied in the book of Genesis.

BTW, there are many other religious books that have some very profound theology and philosophical musings which could be considered on par if not surpass the "intelligence" of the events in the book of Genesis i.e. try reading the Buddhist or Hindu Sutras concerning creation: How is this for being unintilligent?


The excerpt myth you posted is nowhere near as profound as the bible. Nothing is!

With that said, my point was that it is inconsistent for someone to write the the profound book of Genesis and incompetently make such a simple and dumb contradiction (God lying), especially when their purpose was to show that God is both the truthful and the most powerful one.

Edited by h1a8, : No reason given.


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Teapots&unicorns
Member (Idle past 3299 days)
Posts: 178
Joined: 06-23-2009


Message 228 of 381 (513078)
06-24-2009 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 227 by h1a8
02-09-2009 1:27 AM


Re: Bible seldoms says what you would like it to
Also some interpret hell in the bible as a place where one dies for good (cease to exist in any form). This too is like an eternal punishment.

Not to many athiests, deists, and agnostics.

But mercy is mercy. Mercy isn't necessarily letting someone get off scott free.
If the courts sentence someone to 50 years instead of 50 years and 1 day then they showed mercy.

Not necessarily. Although this is one extremely broad view of mercy, people tend to view mercy as a lessening of punishment through empathy, rather than through merely lessening the severity for whatever reason(s)

God set this all up in grand scheme of things in order to transform man into the beings He want us to become. He could've have made us that way from the beginning, but that would be equivalent of having a robot worship and love you. If the angels, who were created good, can be wicked then mankind can as well. God knew this and He knew it was just a matter of time before man showed his wickedness. So he knew his grand plan even before it started.

This is a real world equivalent. Ready?
I design a self-completing robot software that I want to be able to clean my room and do all of my homework every day. Now, I know that at times the code may be corrupted, but in the end, I know for sure that I will end up with the perfect robot (in my perspective anyway). Now is there any "freedom" in that robot? Of course not! Even though it can become corrupted at one point, it will still end up in the exact way that I wanted it to. Even if God gave us free will individually, he knew that at some point we would be driven to worship him anyway. It is in this way that the ends have nothing to do with the means, and thus there is no inherent difference between God creating us to worship him and creating us to worship him later.


“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
- Stephen Roberts

“I'm a polyatheist - there are many gods I don't believe in”
- Dan Foutes

"In the beginning, the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has widely been considered as a bad move."
- Douglas Adams


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themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 381 (515356)
07-17-2009 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Teapots&unicorns
06-24-2009 6:23 PM


Re: Bible seldoms says what you would like it to
To add to what Teapot is saying, I don't believe one can have free will if they have a gun to their head. God has put a gun to the head of every one of us with hell.

This message is a reply to:
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John 10:10
Member (Idle past 1407 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 230 of 381 (516752)
07-27-2009 10:26 AM


Choosing eternal life vs choosing
Matt 25:41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, `Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels."

Jesus declared that hell was prepared for the devil and his angels, and He says it's eternal.

Jesus declared this of Himself in John 3.

17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten (Acts 13:33) Son of God.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to be judged for not believing in the Gospel of the Lord Jresus Christ, but there is no gun held to anyone's head. The choice is simply believe or be judged.

Those who believe and enter into God's salvation in Christ Jesus will never be disappointed (Rom 9:33). Jesus does say the same for those who choose not to believe.


  
RevCrossHugger
Member (Idle past 3763 days)
Posts: 108
From: Eliz. TN USA
Joined: 06-28-2009


Message 231 of 381 (517048)
07-29-2009 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GreyOwl
01-03-2005 11:25 AM


God is omnipotent in his own realm and there are many passages that say god is perfect etc. Where people get confused is that they confuse our universe with Gods realm. God designed this universe to run on natural law with all its warts and quantum like uncertainty, a universe designed to run on probabilities Chaos and uncertainty.

; {>

Edited by RevCrossHugger, : No reason given.


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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2717 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 232 of 381 (517232)
07-30-2009 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by doctrbill
02-28-2005 1:42 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Doctrbill writes:

“Why is it that Jesus is coming back to kill me and my friends and members of my family who aren't 'good' Christians? Do you think that makes me want to believe in him?”

Dear Doctrbill,

I know you were asking this of someone else, so, please forgive me for putting my two cense in.

I believe, with this question, you are working from two misconceptions.

The first is that you are assuming that there really is no ‘Real God’, and therefore all religious material is just historic documents, myths, and fables.

If your assumption is correct (I.E. there is no God) then you are justified in your assumptions of the authors intents written in these manuscripts.

Not only that, but if God is a myth, then nothing we do really ever matters. In fifty years 90% of the worlds population today will be forgotten, 99% in a hundred years, and in a thousand years the percentage of people remembered will be synonymous with zero.

So why be concerned with what others believe or do? If someone wants to wipe out a certain ‘class’ or ‘race’ of people what’s it going to matter (in the long run)? If there is not God then Government is the highest authority and right and wrong is judged solely on whether it is legal or illegal.

However, if you are wrong (and there is a God) then would it not stand to reason that:

A. This God may have a purpose or reason for creating everything the way in which it is made?
B. That if this God did communicate with his creation, in written form, that at least one of the worlds (so called) holy books is actually authored by God using men as secretaries?
C. God’s law supersedes all other laws?
D. That we will have to answer for our actions (good and bad) at some point.
E. That this God’s standards are what we will be judged by, not our own?

The second is that you’re looking at God as just a Judge who is out to get you for crimes you didn’t even know you committed.

God will Judge all, however, He has not kept His Laws a secret. It is only our arrogance that keeps us from seeing, and obeying God’s Laws.

To keep my post short I’ll just give you one example.

“13You shall not commit murder.” (Exodus 20: 3, Amplified Bible)

A humble person will admit that the malicious taking of a persons life is just plain wrong. It takes an arrogant person to say that someone else’s life is not worth anything so it’s O.K. to kill them.

One last thing about this Question.

In the tribulation (the time of judgment you’re speaking of) everyone whom God is dealing harshly with has both done things against His Laws and rejected the ‘Get out of Jail Free’ card (Namely Jesus’ sacrifice for their sins). Do you not think God to be Just in Judging His creation by His standard?

Doctrbill writes:

As a long time atheist (reformed Christian) I can testify to the power of prayer, the reality of divine guidance, and the still small voice of conscience. These phenomena are common to humanity.

I would say that “These phenomena are common to humanity” because God put them in all of mankind. Just because a ‘CPU’ is common to all computers does not negate the fact that someone placed it there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by doctrbill, posted 02-28-2005 1:42 PM doctrbill has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 235 by purpledawn, posted 08-10-2009 2:54 PM JRTjr has responded

  
doctrbill
Member (Idle past 1176 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 233 of 381 (517267)
07-30-2009 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by JRTjr
07-30-2009 12:14 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
JRTjr writes:

… if God is a myth, then nothing we do really ever matters.

Pardon my vulgarity, but that’s a pile o’ pucky.

If someone wants to wipe out a certain ‘class’ or ‘race’ of people what’s it going to matter (in the long run)?

You might never have been born. Does that matter to you?

If there is not God then Government is the highest authority and right and wrong is judged solely on whether it is legal or illegal.

Government has always been the highest authority. Right and wrong have always been judged according to the legalities.

… you’re looking at God as just a Judge … He has not kept His Laws a secret. It is only our arrogance that keeps us from seeing, and obeying God’s Laws.

To keep my post short I’ll just give you one example.

“13You shall not commit murder.” (Exodus 20: 3, Amplified Bible)

A humble person will admit that the malicious taking of a persons life is just plain wrong. It takes an arrogant person to say that someone else’s life is not worth anything so it’s O.K. to kill them.

Jehovah (God of the Bible) says

  • thou shalt kill the woman (accused of bestiality) Leviticus 20:16
  • kill every male (child)… and kill every (grown) woman … (infidels) Numbers 31:17
  • thou shalt surely kill him (the infidel) Deuteronomy 13:9
  • slay the murderer Numbers 35:19
  • the murderer shall be put to death” Numbers 35:30
  • slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. 1Samuel 15:3
In other words: "Kill every living thing."

And if ordinary men were unwilling to kill, then:

  • the LORD would slay them. 1 Samuel 2:25
  • I will kill you (for abusing orphans, say Jehovah) Exodus 22:24

Enough of that for now. I wouldn't want you to think that I sympathize with such a bloodthirsty deity.

Seriously though, If you want to discuss the Law of God, lets talk about something other than the ancient Hebrew civil code. Let's talk about the Real Law, of the Real God. Let's talk about the law of Gravity, or Electromagnetism, or the Law of Copulation (just do it) OK? Such things comprise the True Law of the True God. All else is the witch doctrine of ancient superstition.


Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2717 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 234 of 381 (519016)
08-10-2009 2:13 PM
Reply to: Message 233 by doctrbill
07-30-2009 5:13 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Dear Doctrbill,

“but that�s a pile o� pucky.”
“You might never have been born. Does that matter to you?”

These are not arguments against the points I am making rather they are your opinion and therefore not logical arguments.

What you or I believe does not change what is. I could say ‘everything you just said is a lie’ but I have not proven anything. ‘Facts’, popular or not, are still ‘Facts’. We ignore ‘Facts’ to our own peril.

By the way: Whether or not my life mattered to me, or not, does not change the fact that life is meaningless in the grand scheme of things if there is no God.

“Government has always been the highest authority. Right and wrong have always been judged according to the legalities.”

So, what you’re saying is that Government(s) established the “Law of Gravity”, or the laws that govern “Electromagnetism”?

I think not, Yes, Governments do make laws (have authority) and are charged with upholding those laws; however, the laws of Nature, and Natures God, supersede Governmental law. This is why the Allied Nations were justified in wiping out the Nazi regime; and why it was wrong of the Nazis to exterminate over twelve million people even though at that time (In Germany) it was ‘legal’.

One last thing, you reference several places in scripture (The Bible) where God requires individuals to be put to dearth or where God Himself says He is going to kill individuals or groups of people; and you call Him “a bloodthirsty deity”.

Someone whom is “bloodthirsty” is killing people maliciously without justification. Two problems with your “bloodthirsty deity” hypothesis.

One, He is justified in His actions. The Creator of the Universes has all authority over His creation. In other words, God has the right (the authority) to kill or require governments to kill whomever He wishes. No one has the right to tell the Creator of the universe that He can’t do this or has no right to do that.

Two, God is not just randomly killing whomever just happens to get it the way or sitting in heaven waiting for you to mess-up so he can strike you down just for the fun of it.

The death penalty, in these instances, accomplishes two things. One it punishes sin. Two it shows how serious sin is to God. We see ourselves as better then other. I my think myself better than the drunk on the street or the man that beats his wife because I do not do these thing; however, God does not compare my sin to your sin or Hitler’s, he compares my sinful state to His Holiness.

In that light, none of us are “good” enough. Under those standards all of us deserve eternal separation from our Creator, however , God loves us; so much so that He Himself became the only scarifies that would wash away our transgressions. The Great Creator became the atonement for our Sin through Jesus Christ’s scarifies of the Cross.

bloodâ‹…thirstâ‹…y

–adjective
1. Eager to shed blood; murderous: to capture a bloodthirsty criminal.
2. Enjoying or encouraging bloodshed or violence, esp. as a spectator or clamorous partisan: the bloodthirsty urgings of the fight fans.

sin
–noun
1. Transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam.
2. any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.

aâ‹…toneâ‹…ment
–noun
1. Satisfaction or reparation for a wrong or injury; amends.
2. (Sometimes initial capital letter ) Theology. The doctrine concerning the reconciliation of God and humankind, esp. as accomplished through the life, suffering, and death of Christ.
3. Christian Science. The experience of humankind's unity with God exemplified by Jesus Christ.
4. Archaic. Reconciliation; agreement.

www.Dictionary.com


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Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by bluescat48, posted 08-10-2009 3:52 PM JRTjr has acknowledged this reply
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1869 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 235 of 381 (519020)
08-10-2009 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by JRTjr
07-30-2009 12:14 PM


If There is a God
quote:
However, if you are wrong (and there is a God) then would it not stand to reason that:

A. This God may have a purpose or reason for creating everything the way in which it is made?
B. That if this God did communicate with his creation, in written form, that at least one of the worlds (so called) holy books is actually authored by God using men as secretaries?
C. God’s law supersedes all other laws?
D. That we will have to answer for our actions (good and bad) at some point.
E. That this God’s standards are what we will be judged by, not our own?


No

A. He could be flying by the seat of his pants.
B. Nope, could have been lost in the plunderings.
C. There's no way to tell what laws are from a god and which are not.
D. The culture determines good and bad. These change.
E. Again the standards are unknown. We only have the standards of man.

The human imagination can imagine anything, but that doesn't mean it's true.


"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by JRTjr, posted 07-30-2009 12:14 PM JRTjr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by JRTjr, posted 08-16-2009 3:59 PM purpledawn has responded

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2601 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 236 of 381 (519024)
08-10-2009 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by JRTjr
08-10-2009 2:13 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Someone whom is “bloodthirsty” is killing people maliciously without justification.

Which is basically what the Abrahamic Deity Yahweh told the israei Army to to to the Canaanites women & children. Where is the justification for that, the Canaanite Armies, yes, but not the non-combatants, that is bloodthirsty.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
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greyseal
Member (Idle past 2273 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 237 of 381 (519245)
08-12-2009 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by JRTjr
08-10-2009 2:13 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Hi,

I don't really know why you felt it necessary to write down what bloodythirsty, sin and atonement meant - I think almost everybody reading your words understand them.

The fact is, we think that when your god tells you to murder women and children, to kill all the manfolk, to burn, rape and pillage, that that happens to fulfill the exact meaning of bloodthirsty.

It is disturbing that you think that life without god has no meaning, and that you give your great beard in the sky absolute leave to murder, rape, kill, burn, pillage lie and deceive - whichever way you swing it, when your god says it is okay to commit mass murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, pillage and rape, that is bloodthirsty and it is abhorrent.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by JRTjr, posted 08-10-2009 2:13 PM JRTjr has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by JRTjr, posted 08-16-2009 3:31 PM greyseal has responded

  
JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2717 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 238 of 381 (519722)
08-16-2009 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by greyseal
08-12-2009 3:22 PM


Re: Wise as Serpents
Dear Greyseal,

Thank you for responding to my posting.

Greyseal writes:

I don't really know why you felt it necessary to write down what bloodythirsty, sin and atonement meant - I think almost everybody reading your words understand them.


My reason for defining these terms is because I want to be vary specific with what I am saying.

The point I was trying to make was that the Creator of the universes is not some bloodthirsty, vengeful god waiting, with baited breath, to find one little reason to snuff you out. He is patient and long suffering wanting all to repent of their transgressions (Sin) and accept His free gift of Grace.

However, God has given us free will. This means that we can chose to do things our way or chose to do things His way. God has told us the consequences of both choices. Now this does not mean you can do what you want with no consequences. If you chose to do things your way don’t blame God when you suffer for it. (If you chose to put you hand in the fire, don’t blame God when you get burned)

God has never given anyone (group or individual) the right to “commit mass murder, genocide, ethnic cleansing, pillage and rape”. God has, however, given the nation of Israel, at certain times the responsibility of carrying out His righteous Judgments. In other words God has, at times, Judged that certain societies have transgressed His law to the point that wiping them our is the best way to preserve mankind. (Like removing an appendix to save the life of the patient) Note also that God only had Israel wipeout totally one or two city states or groups of people. Most of the time he had them invade and conquer but not wipeout completely.

Greyseal writes:

The fact is, we think that when your god tells you to murder women and children, to kill all the manfolk, to burn, rape and pillage, that that happens to fulfill the exact meaning of bloodthirsty.

Two things here; One, it’s not just “my god”, I am speaking of the Creator of the universes. The Creator of the universes’ authority out strips all others. So whether or not I call Him “my God” does not change the Fact that His authority gives Him the right to do whatever He chooses to do whether or not you or I approve of it. This means that when the State of Texas executes a man for murdering innocent people we are doing what God has required of us. (Lev. 24:17-22) The State of Texas is not “murdering women and children, killing all the man folk, .. burning, raping and pillaging” just making absolutely sure that these individuals can never harm anyone again. Death is the righteous penalty for murder not because its ‘fun to kill’, but because it’s the only punishment that fits the crime.

Second, God has never told anyone it is O.K. to rape. Sensationalizing what God has said only shows how poor your stance is. If you’re going to argue from a logical and scientific perspective, please stick to the facts. Sensationalization may make good fiction, but it makes for poor debate.

One last thing; If God is real, then the choice is whether or not to do things His way. If God does not exist whether or not you believe does not matter.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by greyseal, posted 08-17-2009 6:36 AM JRTjr has responded
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JRTjr
Member (Idle past 2717 days)
Posts: 178
From: Houston, Texas, USA
Joined: 07-19-2004


Message 239 of 381 (519724)
08-16-2009 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by purpledawn
08-10-2009 2:54 PM


Re: If There is a God
Dear Purpledawn,

purpledawn writes:

The human imagination can imagine anything, but that doesn't mean it's true.


I agree with this statement completely; however, you seem to have missed, completely, what I was saying.

I would like to apologize for not being clearer.

The point I was making here is that ‘IF’ God is ‘real(–adjective true; not merely ostensible, nominal, or apparent: the real reason for an act. Existing or occurring as fact; actual rather than imaginary, ideal, or fictitious: a story taken from real life. Being an actual thing; having objective existence; not imaginary: The events you will see in the film are real and not just made up. Being actually such; not merely so-called: a real victory. Genuine; not counterfeit, artificial, or imitation; authentic: a real antique; a real diamond; real silk.{Dictionary.com, emphases added by me}) then is it not possible that the things I mentioned are true?


This message is a reply to:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1869 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 240 of 381 (519749)
08-16-2009 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 239 by JRTjr
08-16-2009 3:59 PM


Re: If There is a God
quote:
The point I was making here is that ‘IF’ God is ‘real’ (–adjective true; not merely ostensible, nominal, or apparent: the real reason for an act. Existing or occurring as fact; actual rather than imaginary, ideal, or fictitious: a story taken from real life. Being an actual thing; having objective existence; not imaginary: The events you will see in the film are real and not just made up. Being actually such; not merely so-called: a real victory. Genuine; not counterfeit, artificial, or imitation; authentic: a real antique; a real diamond; real silk.{Dictionary.com, emphases added by me}) then is it not possible that the things I mentioned are true?
Nope didn't miss what you were saying.
You said in Message 232: However, if you are wrong (and there is a God) then would it not stand to reason that:
and proceeded with a list and I said no, your list doesn't stand to reason.

quote:
then is it not possible that the things I mentioned are true?
No. Mere existence doesn't make them true. My list could just as easily be true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by JRTjr, posted 08-16-2009 3:59 PM JRTjr has not yet responded

  
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