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Author Topic:   Is Evolution the only option in a Naturalistic point of view ?
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9196
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 37 of 104 (517745)
08-02-2009 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by slevesque
08-01-2009 11:15 PM


Rejecting a law is, in my opinion, much more difficult than a scientific theory, as it is at the top of the ladder of science.
I know this is off topic, but this statement just demonstrates the ignorance you and most creationists bring to the table. There is no hierarchy in science like this. Theories do not get elevated to laws.
In a nutshell.
quote:
The biggest difference between a law and a theory is that a theory is much more complex and dynamic. A law describes a single action, whereas a theory explains an entire group of related phenomena.
Read this
Scientific Theory, Law, and Hypothesis Explained | Wilstar.com
it might help you with your basic understanding of scientific laws and theories. Then again maybe it won't.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by slevesque, posted 08-01-2009 11:15 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by slevesque, posted 08-03-2009 12:14 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9196
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 40 of 104 (517826)
08-02-2009 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by slevesque
08-02-2009 3:49 AM


Re: Evidence
There is a lady I know very well that was diagnosed with a cancer by her doctor, who used x-rays etc. to identify it. Despite that she had the x-ray right in front of here, she refused to believe it and so went to another city to see another doctor so that he would examine her if she had a cancer. (Health care is free here in quebec, so she was paying herself a little 'luxury' haha) Same tests, same results with the same cancer at the same place. She still didn't accept it, and drove 2 hours to another hospital in another city, and was rechecked if she had cancer. Again, exactly the same results. Now seeing these three independant confirmations that she had a cancer, she finally accepted it. After scheduling here operation to have it removed, she said to the doctor: ''God didn't say his last word on all this!'' and left. Fast forward a month or two later, at the day scheduled for here operation. She was in the hospital elevator with the doctor, all set to go down to the operation room when a nurse came running to announce that the pre-operation tests had revealed that there were no more cancer. The new x-rays were totally different from the three previous ones, and the cancer had in fatc disappeared. When the lady turned to the doctor and asked: 'What happened ?' the doctor simply replied: 'It happenned exactly what you told me.' This was revealing because that doctor was not a christian at all, and yet didn't even try to explain what had happened. He had recognized a miracle when he saw one.
Anyone can provide an anecdote. There are many places in this story where the facts could be altered. Evidence is what is required. Was this written up in medical literature? I think something like this would get some sort of mention. What is your proof the doc wasn't a christian? Seems like a convenient addition to me. Show me evidence. Xrays, testimonials from doctors, follow up exams. I am sure you have none of this and there is none.
This not evidence. This is folklore until there is independent verification. Nothing more.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by slevesque, posted 08-02-2009 3:49 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-02-2009 7:14 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 55 by slevesque, posted 08-03-2009 1:02 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9196
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 66 of 104 (517905)
08-03-2009 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by slevesque
08-03-2009 12:06 AM


Re: Evidence
and even luckier that they are both christians.
What? Good things don't happen to non-christians? Why would you assume being christian has anything to do with anything? Now you know two people that this happened to?
I just spoke to a friend who is a radiologist. He says that though something like this is uncommon it is not rare. Spontaneous remission of cancer is not an unknown phenomenon. Tends to drive docs crazy, because peoeple start proclaiming miracles. He even knows of people that received treatment and then claim that it was some sort of miracle. No sense giving the docs and medicine any credit when you can give it all to god.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by slevesque, posted 08-03-2009 12:06 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by slevesque, posted 08-06-2009 1:30 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9196
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 67 of 104 (517907)
08-03-2009 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by slevesque
08-03-2009 12:14 AM


I sound arrogant because you have been given the info numerous times, but still decide to remain ignorant.
I'm only 19 years old and I haven't planed on stoping to learn.
Maybe you should stop and learn a little bit. It might help you in your discussions here.
I can not make you learn, but maybe if you stopped and read what people told you and followed a link or two you might actually learn something.
ALthough I would think that a law, before being established as a law, was a theory, no ?
NO, NO, NO and NO.
If you had just read what I posted you would see that this is wrong.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by slevesque, posted 08-03-2009 12:14 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by slevesque, posted 08-06-2009 12:55 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9196
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 68 of 104 (517908)
08-03-2009 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by slevesque
08-03-2009 12:39 AM


Re: Evidence
For amputees, I think the answer lies in that a lost limb should not be considered an illness.
So your god limits his miracles to illnesses? Or is it that he can't replace a limb?
I am sure that this all sounds logical to you, but it is pure rationalizing in order to get reality to fit into your belief set.
All these miracles you keep talking about, where is the evidence?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by slevesque, posted 08-03-2009 12:39 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by slevesque, posted 08-06-2009 1:06 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9196
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 78 of 104 (518459)
08-06-2009 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by slevesque
08-06-2009 12:55 AM


I just want to say that two previous persons had already answered my question, and that I did stop and read what they told me ...
I mean, you could also read what others posted so that I don't get three times the same answer. Once is usually enough with me
The problem is when I get to reading a thread, I don't read all the posts then decide which to respond to. I read them one at a time and respond at that time. This is the nature of forums like this. Deal with it.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by slevesque, posted 08-06-2009 12:55 AM slevesque has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Admin, posted 08-07-2009 7:00 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9196
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 79 of 104 (518460)
08-06-2009 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by slevesque
08-06-2009 1:00 AM


Re: And What Should A Theist Think?
I do think that the belief in God/Gods (the theistic position) is innate in humans, even in evolutionnary theory. The belief i na particular God/Gods is of course acquired knowledge though.
Great topic for another thread. The problem is you have no evidence. Just your preconceived ideas from your own indoctrination.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by slevesque, posted 08-06-2009 1:00 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by slevesque, posted 08-07-2009 11:42 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9196
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 80 of 104 (518462)
08-06-2009 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by slevesque
08-06-2009 1:30 AM


Re: Evidence
Any chance he could tell you the christian/non-christian ratio of the spontaneous cancer remissions ?
No but their have been studies on the effectiveness of prayer. Or should I say ineffectiveness.
Abstract of original study.
News story
quote:
The prayer of others is widely believed to influence the recovery of patients. To find out if it works, several studies have been carried out with mixed results. But researchers at six academic hospitals across the United States found that the investigations had not followed the best scientific methods. So they carried out their own study on 1,800 patients about to undergo heart bypass surgery, in which clogged arteries are replaced by clean ones removed from the leg. It is the largest known study so far on the question.
A total of 600 of the patients received the prayers of others before surgery after being told they might or might not get them. Another 600 were told the same thing, but were not prayed for. The third group of 600 received pre-surgical prayer and knew it.
The researchers report that the prayers had no effect on the recovery of the first two groups of heart patients, those who did not know whether others were praying for them.
To their surprise, the researchers found that the third group of heart bypass patients, those who knew others were praying for them, had more surgical complications as a whole than the other two.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by slevesque, posted 08-06-2009 1:30 AM slevesque has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9196
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 83 of 104 (518672)
08-07-2009 7:59 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Admin
08-07-2009 7:00 AM


If you look at my reply to him and compare it to what the others had said you will see that my message was quite different from theirs. I had earlier posted info explaining the differences between a law and a hypothesis, which he problem ignored As a matter of fact the post in question was a reply to ME.
There is no intent and I think it is quite difficult to interpret my response as "piling on". I will respond to replies to my post.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Admin, posted 08-07-2009 7:00 AM Admin has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9196
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 85 of 104 (518793)
08-08-2009 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by slevesque
08-07-2009 11:42 PM


Re: And What Should A Theist Think?
Barrett who is the researcher in the article you linked to is hardly a subjective researcher.
quote:
And one prominent member of the byproduct camp, Justin Barrett, is an observant Christian who believes in “an all-knowing, all-powerful, perfectly good God who brought the universe into being,” as he wrote in an e-mail message. “I believe that the purpose for people is to love God and love each other.”
“Christian theology teaches that people were crafted by God to be in a loving relationship with him and other people,” Barrett wrote in his e-mail message. “Why wouldn’t God, then, design us in such a way as to find belief in divinity quite natural?” Having a scientific explanation for mental phenomena does not mean we should stop believing in them, he wrote. “Suppose science produces a convincing account for why I think my wife loves me ” should I then stop believing that she does?”
Source
This study was funded by the Templeton Foundation. The purpose of the Templeton Foundation is to promote religion(christianity).Before presenting something as clear evidence you should probably look at the responses to it.
Children of God? | AC Grayling | The Guardian
quote:
But Barrett and friends infer from the first half of these unexceptionable facts that children are hardwired to believe in a supreme being. Not only does this ignore the evidence from developmental psychology about the second stage of cognitive maturation, but is in itself a very big - and obviously hopeful - jump indeed. Moreover it ignores the fact that large tracts of humankind (the Chinese for a numerous example) have no beliefs in a supreme being, innate or learned, and that most primitive religion is animistic, a simple extension of the agency-imputing explanation which gives each tree its dryad and each stream its nymph, no supreme beings required.
Sure sounds like Mr. Barrett went into the study with preconceived ideas.
quote:
He compared believers to three-year-olds who “assume that other people know almost everything there is to be known”. Dr Barrett, who is a Christian, is the editor of the Journal of Cognition and Cultureand author of the book Why Would Anyone Believe in God? He said that the childish tendency to believe in the omniscience of others was pared down by experience as people grew up. But this tendency, necessary to allow human beings to socialise and cooperate with each other in a productive way, continued when it came to belief in God.
“It usually does continue into adult life,” he said. “It is easy, it is intuitive, it is natural. It fits our default assumptions about things.”
The Times & The Sunday Times
As for the New Scientist article, it is purely an article. I don't subscribe that mag so I cannot read the full article. New Scientist is not known to be a stellar research mag , but the quick blurb does not convince me that the article necessarily says what you say it does. Has anyone here actually read the article? What is it based on? Who are the researchers?
Anyhow, I find the title of the following article to be revealing to the fact that you did in fact push the 'indoctrination' and 'no evidence' button quite early:
There is nothing here to show me you are correct.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by slevesque, posted 08-07-2009 11:42 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Percy, posted 08-09-2009 8:05 AM Theodoric has replied
 Message 90 by slevesque, posted 08-10-2009 1:23 AM Theodoric has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9196
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 87 of 104 (518892)
08-09-2009 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Percy
08-09-2009 8:05 AM


Re: And What Should A Theist Think?
I guess I used the wrong terminology. I prob should not have used research at all in my description of New Scientist. At the time I was struggling to come up with a good description of it. "Science News" magazine is a great way to describe it. I will use that in the future.
ABE I wonder if Slevesque will respond to my post. I'd certainly like to see his attempts at legitimizing his argument.
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Percy, posted 08-09-2009 8:05 AM Percy has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9196
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 99 of 104 (518981)
08-10-2009 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by slevesque
08-10-2009 1:23 AM


Re: And What Should A Theist Think?
From the last article you quote.
quote:
S&S: From your research, do you think it’s possible that the inclination toward religion or spirituality is universal?
Petrovich: I think possibility is the precise word to use here. I can’t be more certain than that because I have only worked with children aged three-and-a-half upward, and that’s already an old age when it comes to basic understandings, some of which are in evidence in the first year of life.
I think any information is preliminary at best. This researcher makes a very clear point that it is difficult to study very young children and at 3 1/2 have they are heavily influenced by society.
I could as legitimately say that these beliefs dissapear when socially repressed.
I do not see how this line of argument helps you. In a sense this is what Grayling is saying. By not reinforcing the belief, the belief is in a sense repressed. Guess I do not understand how you think this is a significant point.
Again, you have made comments claiming that children have an innate belief in a creator. As of yet you have failed to provide convincing evidence that this is true. A few studies by committed christians, that I have nor seen any peer review of, and one article in a science magazine and another in a magazine that has as it mission statement the following.
quote:
Science & Spirit Mission Statement: Our mission is to facilitate a rich and robust dialogue between the scientific and religious communities by forging a common vocabulary. We intend the result to be a more integrated and balanced approach to complex social issues. The following operating principles guide us:
” Science can be enabling and liberating.
” Values provide a path to human integrity.
” Religious traditions should provide bridges between science and values.
Not very convincing for us non-believers. Children believe in a lot of things. A lot of things that arent real.
I guess the next question I have is why do you and the religious feel that if children believe in a god, somehow this make a god more likely or real. Finally on that, why do you even assume it is your christian god?
As for the Templeton Foundation, there is a lot of negative e feeling toward them in the scientific community. It isn't just Grayling and Dawkins either.
quote:
The Foundation's views on the connections between religious and scientific inquiry and their ability to provide significant grants for scientific research has led to quite polarising debate within the scientific community.
Sean M. Carroll, a cosmologist at the University of Chicago, wrote, in describing his self-recusal from a conference he discovered was funded by the Foundation, that "the entire purpose of the Templeton Foundation is to blur the line between straightforward science and explicitly religious activity, making it seem like the two enterprises are part of one big undertaking. It's all about appearances." But he also said, "I appreciate that the Templeton Foundation is actually, in its own way, quite pro-science, and is not nearly as objectionable as the anti-scientific crackpots at the Discovery Institute."[77]
In 2006, John Horgan, a science journalist and the author of several books, wrote in an article in The Chronicle of Higher Education (reprinted in Edge) of his "misgivings about the foundation's agenda of reconciling religion and science". He claims that a conference he attended favored scientists who "offered a perspective clearly skewed in favor of religion and Christianity", and says that a Templeton official "told us that the meeting cost more than $1-million, and in return the foundation wanted us to publish articles touching on science and religion".[78]
Peter Woit, a mathematical physicist at Columbia University occasionally writes about his misgivings with the foundation on his blog (which is hosted by Columbia University). Woit feels it is unfortunate that Templeton's money is used to influence scientific research towards a convergence between science and religion.
In June 2005, Woit wrote:
Look not at what the Templeton people say (which is relatively innocuous), but at what they do. They explicitly refuse to support serious science, and instead fund an incredible array of attempts to inject religion into scientific practice. ... Instead they are heavily funding the one part of the field that most people consider dangerous pseudo-science and a serious threat to the whole concept of what it means to do science.[80]
Source

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by slevesque, posted 08-10-2009 1:23 AM slevesque has not replied

  
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