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Author Topic:   Is Evolution the only option in a Naturalistic point of view ?
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 104 (517802)
08-02-2009 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by slevesque
08-02-2009 6:28 AM


Re: Evidence
I don't know if your playing with words here, but that first description (atoms being annihilated) was what I meant by that the cancer had disappeared.
Now THIS requires serious evidence to support. Disappear is really a laymans term, no medical professional would say "it appears the atoms that formed the cancer have disappeared from the universe", disintegrated or broke down would be a better term. The cancer broke down into lower components so it was no longer cancer. Same as if you took apart a car. The components are still there, but you no longer have a car.
Now, cancer is one of the most difficult diseases to claim "miracle" on. Cancers do occasionally go into remissions and disappear. Or sometimes people pray like crazy and the cancer still takes its full course. Why Won't God Heal Amputees? provides a good overview of the problem. Some diseases(the ones that are difficult to track) have numerous claims of miracles, but then others(losing a limb for instance) are never cured by miracles. I believe this falls under the "God of Gaps" scenario. We have some gaps in our medical knowledge and whenever someone is cured in these gaps, its a miracle of God. However, we have numerous illnesses which are never cured. Lost limbs or genetic disabilities(show me a patient with trisomy 21 which was cured, now THAT would be a miracle or someone who regenerated an arm).
Now, naturalism would suggest we dont claim a miracle cure on cancer because there is allot of things we dont know about cancer, and cancer reacts differently in different cases. This is a reasonable conclusion and is consistent with the fact that plenty of other horrible disabilities are not cured. If you wish to refute this, you would need to either explain what barrier is preventing God(whatever god you think did this) from curing the other diseases. It does not make much sense to think God will only cure some illnesses, while completely ignoring others.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by slevesque, posted 08-02-2009 6:28 AM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by slevesque, posted 08-03-2009 12:39 AM themasterdebator has replied

  
themasterdebator
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 104 (517935)
08-03-2009 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by slevesque
08-03-2009 12:39 AM


Re: Evidence
For genetic disabilities such as trisomy, it gets much more difficult to assess. It sure is an illness. How can we know there are no reports of such a healing occuring, I'm not sure how. Maybe since that site went online they have been emailed reports of such healings, but they didn't consider them legitimate. I personnally know someone who works with people who suffer from this, and when I visit here they seem to be as the most happy people in the world, so maybe there is no need for God to actually heal them ? (appart for their family members who pray just to get this 'burden' off their own shoulders)
First, I would like to know where in the Bible or any other source of inspiration that you got the idea that God will only cure certain illnessess. When in the Bible did God put qualifiers on the type of illness you must have for him to consider curing you?
Matthew 21:21:
I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.
Nowhere in there does it say "except in cases of some sicknesses such as limbs."
Second, I think you are missing my point. Which is that "miracles" have never happen on a great number of diseases in which medical science would have to admit are miracles. AIDS is another good one. Millions of children in Africa are born with AIDS, but there are no reports of them being cured. Some children live longer than others, but none of them have been cured from the disease to live a long and healthy life. Or any of the dozens of genetic diseases listed below
Guide to genetic disorders | healthdirect
Cures only seem to happen for diseases which we know go into remission on their own(Cancer) but never happen in diseases that never go away on their own(lost limbs or genetic defects).
Furthermore, the effects of prayer and belief have been studied. The Templeton Foundation(which is a strongly pro Christian research group) did a study on the effect of prayer in patients with heart disease. They found that the control group(no prayers) and the group that did not know they were being prayed for had the same survival rate. Ironically, patients who knew they were being prayed for were less likely to survive. This is a subject which has been studied and does not show a trend of miracle cures through peoples faith.
Sorry - we can't find that page

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by slevesque, posted 08-03-2009 12:39 AM slevesque has not replied

  
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