Atheist Camp

Sounds like you got off lightly with your wedgie.......

I know this was addressed to lyx2no, but I just wanted to throw my two cents in. I grew up going to an Episcopal camp, that also ended up volunteering and later working at. I started out there as a pretty faithful kid already, so I obviously didn't have anyone bullying me for religious reasons. However, I also don't remember ANYONE ever getting bullied for religious reasons (doesn't mean it didn't happen) and I also know that it was a place where critical thinking and free questioning was completely allowed. As a volunteer counselor and later staff member at this camp I remember talking to plenty of kids during small group time who talked about being atheist, agnostic, or just skeptical about certain parts of christianity. I loved having these kids in my group because it sparked real and interesting discussion. Sometimes it would result in someone becoming more religious, sometimes it resulted in other questioning their own faith. Sometimes people got really upset. But my point is that there was some great discussion. This camp also functioned as a wonderful place for emotional support. Quite a few of the campers I've encountered at this camp came from very difficult home situations, and it was at this camp more than any other place that these kids felt accepted and able to be open and honest about themselves. Obviously, this didn't happen with every single camper, and some campers didn't also have the best experiences (in fact I remember talking with some particularly fundamentalist kids who felt outnumbered and frustrated by the more liberal campers). And for me personally, even though I've become an atheist, I'm still a part of this camp community, and the others members of this community still accept me whole heartedly. Anyhow, my point is that, when done right, camps can have a huge net benefit for the children that attend them. I'm not positive camp quest is one of these camps, but it should not be dismissed out of hand simply for being a camp.Edited by Stagamancer, : No reason given.Edited by Stagamancer, : clean up

---

We have many intuitions in our life and the point is that many of these intuitions are wrong. The question is, are we going to test those intuitions?
-Dan Ariely

It is not beyond reason that my mum sent me to the wackiest Christian camps she could find to make Catholicism look good to me. At neither of the two camps I went to was there any talk of Jesus not being in that very room, yet alone not existing.I don't know about Episcopalians, but Pentecostals are nuts.With the adults and older kids around it was just kind of lame. But get off into the woods for a few hours of kid time and Lord of the Flies* comes to mind. And without a doubt I was Piggy. Piggy without the sense to back down. Better that being Simon, I suppose. *Not only did I type in "Rings" instead of "Flies", when I came back to edit that error I realized when I proof read "Lord of the Rings" prior to posting I corrected that to "The Lord of the Rings". Funny the way the mind works.Edited by lyx2no, : Lord of the Flies

---

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.

Im an atheist but when/if i get children, i would never send them to a camp like that.

Maybe you mean "Lord of the Flies"?

---

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Indeed I did. I'll edit. Thanks.

---

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.

Why?Some more info on "Atheist Camp":http://www.bigissuescotland.com/features/view/101

I have two sons (the younger will start college in a few weeks). They both attended "activity" camps (daytime only, no sleep-overs) -- neither "religious" nor "anti-religious", simply "learning" -- nature, art, sports. I think they enjoyed these things, and that's what mattered (along with getting them safely out of the house during the summer).I never attended any sort of camp as a child, except for one occasion, accompanying a few dozen Boy Scouts in southern California on a 2 or 3 day camping trip (getting far enough into a "wilderness" area, having tents, camp fires, hikes, etc). On one evening of that event, there was a "snipe hunt", for which the premise was that a creature was out there in the surrounding area that would be attracted by loud noise, and if we split up into groups of two or three, dispersed into the darkness, settled into positions far enough apart, and made as much noise as possible, someone might be able to catch a "snipe". Enough of us were gullible at that age, and the rest of us were content to play along. When we were called back in, the counselors let us in on the joke.The point was simply that it was a joke, primarily for the enjoyment of the counselors: there can be general fun and enjoyment from playing innocuous jokes on gullible people, given that you let them in on it afterwards and keep it friendly. Lesson learned, no harm done.For any "camp" experience to be based on (or directed by) a philosophical or doctrinal position is to do violence to the core value of a camp, which is that the attendees are being provided with a range of diversions. They should enjoy it, not be harmed or devalued by it, and develop friendships. If they happen to learn things, that's a nice bonus, but what gets learned is entirely up to each kid, not the planners.Regarding the camp program cited in the OP, or any of the Judeo/Christian camps it is meant to contrast with, what would happen to a child who expresses a belief in reincarnation? If this poses a conflict with the goals of the camp (and has a negative impact on the child's experience), there is a basic flaw in the design of the camp.

---

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

I'm afraid, I've reversed the order of these quotes from you, I think it make more sense to answer them in this order: Maybe kids as young as seven should just be left to be a bit illiterate? Maybe this is the best way to discover grammar and spelling for oneself at that age? Maybe this is a necessary part of the process of eventually working out for oneself what is spelt correctly and what is not?I don't believe that critical thinking, and rationality, is different to other skills. It can be taught, it should be taught and the younger you start teaching it the better. From the article in the OP:

quote:

---

Stein said the camp was not only for the offspring of atheists or "irreligious" parents. "It is a secular alternative open to children of parents of all faiths and none," she said.

​

"It is not about changing what they think, but the way that they think. There is very little that attacks religion; we are not a rival to religious camps."

---

I think the newspaper branding of this as "atheist camp", the intention is to teach secular values, and skills of critical thinking and intelligently reaching your own conclusion. Maybe that's a "well defined mindset", but I don't see how it can be credibly described as any worse than teaching kids that "stealing is bad" or "2+2=4".

Er no. I don't think that would be a very good idea. I have no problem with teaching kids how to think rationally or critically. But at the same time I don't think that there is anything particularly wrong with seven year olds believing in Santa Claus or other such irrational but fun and fantastical things. In fact I think it would be a deep shame if the oppportunity to be "irrational" in this way were denied in order to promote rationality for the sake of rationality. Isn't imagination an important "skill" too? Maybe the two are not mutually exclusive. I would certainly like to think not. But I am not convinced that "atheist camp" has got the balance right. Like I said I am somewhat conflicted on this issue. Which is after all why I raised it. My main problem with all of this is as follows. If a group of adults collect themselves together on the basis of like minded thinking on a particular issue or ideology (political, religious, whatever) then that is up to them. However if those same adults start collecting together kids on the basis of those same beliefs (or lack of them) then that smacks of indoctrination. I wouldn't support socialist camp for kids, nor free-market capitalist camp. In fact I would find "politico camp" for kids as young as seven run by adherents of a single political philosophy quite disturbing. Regardless of my own political inclinations.Now we have what is dubbed "atheist camp". I think the aim of teaching rational critical thinking is noble. I think there is a need in society for the promotion of such ideas. I even think kids should be taught such things in some contexts pretty early on in life.BUT at the end of the day what we have here is a group of like minded adults united under the banner of atheism effectively grouping kids under that same ideological banner. No matter how noble, well intentioned or even necessary I may think the stated aims of the camps are I remain uncomfortable with single issue ideological groupings for kids. Any issue.I remain somewhet conflicted because, as previoulsy stated, I think the proclaimed aims of the camps are vaguely noble whilst I find the actuality somewhat sinister. So I remain in favour of promoting rational thought whilst still being pretty firmly bedded to the reasons for my original discomfort with the idea of "atheist camp".Whether you agree or disagree does that at least make sense?Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

I've been pointing out for years that there are very loud voices within the atheist community that have taken this perceived war against all things religious way too far. So far, in fact, that it's become itself a pseudo-religion in the absence of God.I don't see how this indoctrination is any different than what we've witnessed about the Bible Camp documentary.I wouldn't say that atheism has gone mad, per say, because not all atheists align with such a radical approach to viewing atheism. But there are atheists out there that have gone off the deep end.

---

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine

I think the people involved have a genuine desire to promote rational and independent thinking in kids. I definitely do not think that their intention is indoctrination and I think they would protest that allegation quite strongly and no doubt quite convincingly.However: My own view is that, no matter how well intentioned, if a group of adults united by an idea group kids together in a way that mirrors overtly indoctrinating organisations then it is naive to think that similar indoctrination is not a serious possibility.If you mirror the methods the chances are you will mirror the results. Intended or otherwise. IMHO.But as I have said repeatedly I remain conflicted on the issue and if anyone wants to convince me I am wrong I am open to arguments.

Anyone would strongly deny allegations of indoctrination, so that seems like a moot point, which is likely because "indoctrination" has a negative connotation to it. Agreed. I have no doubt that Jesus camps, or whatever they're called, have benevolent intentions. But then the Nazi's had good intentions in mind too, and we all know where that went. Everybody thinks they're the "good guy," you know. I don't know of too many people or organizations that intentionally side with "evil" or things they know to be wrong. Rather they find compelling reasons to insist that what they are doing is right. Conflicted on what issue?

---

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine

Conflicted in the sense that I think the stated aims of the camp, namely to promote independent thought and teach critical thinking skills to kids, are very valid whilst at the same time thinking the camps themselves are not a great idea for the reasons previously mentioned.

No great atheistic philosopher ever attended or needed a camp where they naturally looked upon the instructors as authority figures. Children need to foster meaningful relationships and to learn about themselves to instill confidence. Deep metaphysical questions will doubtfully hold their attention, so that whatever ends up happening, they'll just go along with the authority figures assuming they are the experts.That's why indoctrinating children is so easy. They're just so impressionable.

---

"I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. 'Tis the business of little minds to shrink, but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death. " Thomas Paine