Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,784 Year: 4,041/9,624 Month: 912/974 Week: 239/286 Day: 46/109 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   God exists as per the Kalam Cosmological Argument (KCA)
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 236 of 308 (518298)
08-05-2009 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by ICANT
08-04-2009 1:13 PM


Re: Rational & More Rational
The universe never began to exist but it has existed forever, but forever is only 15 billion or so years.
For standard Big Bang cosmology, I couldn't have put it better myself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2009 1:13 PM ICANT has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 237 of 308 (518300)
08-05-2009 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by onifre
08-04-2009 1:34 PM


Re: Rational & More Rational
So the smallest point of this "fabric" is what string theory is trying to explain?
No, string theory is trying to explain all of it, from the smallest point, to the entire space-time.
The BB is just one point on the beach-ball.
And that point would be the break in symmetry from which the 3- forces emerged? (excluding gravity, for now)
The symmetry would be broken a little way out from the point.
If there was no symmetry breaking, there would just be the ball - symmetry breaking results in the separate fields delaminating from the ball itself, and forming the 'layers of paint'.
If I can put it in my words to better understand it, the point has no cause because it is a function of the "beach ball" to break symmetry?
No - the lack of cause has nothing to do with symmetry. The point is just one part of the whole ball. It has no more cause than any other point on the ball.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by onifre, posted 08-04-2009 1:34 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Straggler, posted 08-05-2009 7:37 AM cavediver has replied
 Message 241 by onifre, posted 08-05-2009 11:37 AM cavediver has not replied
 Message 247 by onifre, posted 08-05-2009 12:56 PM cavediver has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 239 of 308 (518319)
08-05-2009 7:57 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Straggler
08-05-2009 7:37 AM


Re: Cause
rom a cosmologists point of view is there any point even speculating as to what "caused" the "ball" to exist such that there are any "points" at all?
The one question which we will always ask is "why is there something rather than nothing?" - this is the fundemental question. If I were God, I would still be asking this question
Sure, we may well explain our 4d Universe from the perspective of string/M-theory, loop quantum gravity, etc, but it still leaves the above question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Straggler, posted 08-05-2009 7:37 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Parasomnium, posted 08-05-2009 8:26 AM cavediver has not replied
 Message 243 by Straggler, posted 08-05-2009 11:57 AM cavediver has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 244 of 308 (518342)
08-05-2009 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by ICANT
08-05-2009 11:56 AM


Re: Rational & More Rational
Before I carry on with this, let me just ask something...
cavediver writes:
We do not have the technology yet to describe what is happening inside that circle. Everything outside this circle is understandable with our present physics.
There is no outside of what exists at T=10-43.
Everything that exists is contained in the ultra-dense, ultra-hot state at T=10-43.
Are you actually trying to correct me here?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by ICANT, posted 08-05-2009 11:56 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by ICANT, posted 08-05-2009 12:20 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 253 of 308 (518365)
08-05-2009 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by onifre
08-05-2009 2:43 PM


Re: "Something", "Nothing" and ICANT
I personally think the whole notion of 'nothingness' is a meaningless concept. It's a human description of a non-definable aspect of reality, simply because we're aware of 'somthing' and are trying to force a description of what we think would be the opposite.
Exactly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by onifre, posted 08-05-2009 2:43 PM onifre has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 256 of 308 (518383)
08-05-2009 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 246 by ICANT
08-05-2009 12:20 PM


Re: Rational & More Rational
Those are words you have spoke to me on several occasions.
Ok, but you're confusing what I'm talking about at different times. I flip between looking at a 3d slice of the Universe, and the whole of 4d space-time.
And you are confusing your circles and spheres, as others have mentioned. Outside the T=10-43secs circle is everything to the future, and inside the circle in everything between T=0 and T=10-43. There is no inside the ball, nor outside the ball. It is the surface of the ball that represents everything, with time flowing forwards from the BB, T=0 point, to the Big Crunch, T=end, on the opposite side of the ball.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 246 by ICANT, posted 08-05-2009 12:20 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by ICANT, posted 08-05-2009 10:07 PM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 266 of 308 (518436)
08-06-2009 2:58 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by Minnemooseus
08-06-2009 2:28 AM


Re: A new universe within an old universe?
it consisted of nothing but absolutely empty space
I would take exception to this, as there is no such thing - the fields are still all there, in a state of unification or otherewise - but essentially you are describing the scenario behind chaotic/eternal inflation and other similar ideas. So yes, this is certainly seriously considered as possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-06-2009 2:28 AM Minnemooseus has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 267 of 308 (518441)
08-06-2009 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by ICANT
08-06-2009 1:22 AM


Re: Trivial Footing
Are you absolutly 100% sure there was no before?
Once again, you are mixing up certainty in what a model says, and certainty that the model in question is the one precisely followed by the Universe.
We only ever have certainty in the former, for this is trivial. That said, plenty of people get confused over the models, so that certainty may well be misplaced.
However, there are certain facts that we do about the Universe that I will state with certainty (even though I might consider them less certain in my musings, but that is often beyond the scope of discussions here)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by ICANT, posted 08-06-2009 1:22 AM ICANT has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 272 of 308 (518488)
08-06-2009 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by ICANT
08-06-2009 9:56 AM


Re: "Before"
Well actually there is no before.
There is no after.
There is only now.
Time does not exist, as it is a man made tool.
Time has been studied for over 2500 years (by our way of caculating time) and we are no closer now to having an answer to the question, 'What is time'?
ICANT, what is the point of asking questions and having people spend time trying to answer them if you are simply going to insert your own ideas into the conversation as "obvious" facts, when they are unfounded and largely incorrect?
The question "what is time?" has many answers, depending on the context, and we have a hell of better idea of the nature of the various times now than we did 120 years ago. If you are simply going to parrot idiocies such as "we have no idea what time is", as other cranks and know-it-alls often state that "we have no idea what gravity is", then participating in this subject is useless and a waste of everyone's time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by ICANT, posted 08-06-2009 9:56 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by ICANT, posted 08-06-2009 10:42 AM cavediver has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 279 of 308 (518522)
08-06-2009 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ICANT
08-06-2009 10:42 AM


Re: "Before"
Many answers does not sound like we are getting close to an answer.
Oh great, just when like a complete twat I think you're actually going to engage in some sensible conversation, you devolve into your usual idiot self.
Th reason that there are several answers is because there are several different concepts that utilise the word "time".
Zeno, Plao, Spinoza and McTaggart all said time is nothing because it does not exist.
Yeah, and they knew fuck-all about time.
Aristole said: "time is the measure of change".
Yeah, and Aristotle knew fuck-all about time.
Newton argued very specifically that time and space are an infinitely large container for all events, and that the container exists with or without the events.
Yeah, and Newton knew little about time and space compared to what we know now.
Kant said, "said time and space are forms that the mind projects upon the external things-in-themselves."
Yeah, and Kant knew fuck-all about time and space.
Some physicists argue that both space and time are the product of some more basic micro-substrate.
Yes, we do. And so what? Does that fact mean that higher level concepts are utter unknowns. Does this mean we also do not understand the nature of atoms? molecules? rocks? monkeys?
Nobody can agree what that substrate is.
It has nothing to do with "agreeing". There are many ideas. They are all works in progress. Not all will be right. So? This is how science works and how it has always works.
quote:
"Everyone in string theory is convinced...that spacetime is doomed. But we don't know what it's replaced by."
  —David Gross
Yes, David and I used to talk about this fifteen years ago. So what? That doesn't mean we don;t understand space-time. It means we don't yet have any firm ideas of what underlies space-time.
Your problem is that you read a statement like David's, and you think "ha ha, they haven't got a fucking clue - and so my idea is probably right"
The problem is straight from your own mouth - you had an idea, and you are convinced it is right. And the only way you will accept anything different is if a complete answer with proof is provided. Well, I'm sorry, that is not how it works. I would say that both you and Smooth Operator have unbelievable arrogance to think the way you do, but to be honest, I think it simply comes from being too stupid to realise otherwise. Which I guess is more forgivable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by ICANT, posted 08-06-2009 10:42 AM ICANT has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 280 of 308 (518533)
08-06-2009 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 259 by ICANT
08-05-2009 10:07 PM


Re: Rational & More Rational
I stay confused.
Yep, and once again I think that's the way you are going to stay. I keep getting tempted back to answer your questions, and explain our understanding of space-time. But each time it devolves into you telling us how it is via your quote-mines, your mis-understandings, and your certainty that you are right and we are all wrong. I was just about to explain your confusion, when you came back with that "no-one understands time" idiocy. With that attitude, once again, I am outta here.
Over two years you have completely failed to understand what has been shown you. We have tried to explain the various analogies, and what each represents, but you insist on interpreting everything through the way you think things work, and you are doomed to failure. Others here have picked up an immense knowledge through both what I and Son Goku have written, and what they have read from other sources. It's fantastic to see how much has been learnt. In the same time, you have not. It is not because you are intellectually challenged. It is not because you are seventy (my grandfather is ninety and is my gardener.) It is because you are exceptionally stubborn and you are inextricably wedded to your own ideas.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 259 by ICANT, posted 08-05-2009 10:07 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by ICANT, posted 08-07-2009 12:09 AM cavediver has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 297 of 308 (518671)
08-07-2009 7:44 AM
Reply to: Message 296 by lyx2no
08-07-2009 7:22 AM


Re: Rational & More Rational
One is not meant to infer that the shape of the model is the shape of the Universe.
True, though each model does represent the global geometry/topology of the Universe. But until you can appreciate what the model is showing, there is no point asking which model is likely to be correct. That is why I like the sphere - almost certainly incorrect given our current picture of dark energy - but it is the easiest to visualise, and if you can understand it, you can understand any of them.
Unfortunately, ICANT is still asking what's inside the sphere, so with this level of incomprehension, asking which model is most likely is utterly pointless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 296 by lyx2no, posted 08-07-2009 7:22 AM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by lyx2no, posted 08-07-2009 4:31 PM cavediver has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3669 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 303 of 308 (518795)
08-08-2009 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by lyx2no
08-08-2009 9:35 AM


Re: Rational & More Rational
Well, you've just put that far better than I could ever manage. You're grandfather would be rather proud
I guess I should add a few comments about the other "quotes" that ICANT has unearthed:
quote:
Tom Parisi says: once upon a time, there was no time or space
Stupid statement for hopefully obvious reasons. Tom Parisi? "Tom Parisi, NIU Office of Public Affairs" Hmmm...
quote:
Dr. van der Pluijm, University of Michigan: The Big Bang theory states that the Universe began when primordial mass exploded.
Similarly stupid - Dr. van der Pluijm, Professor of Geology and of the Environment
quote:
Janna Levin, DAMTP: The universe had a beginning. There was once nothing and now there is something.
Written in a pop-sci layman book, but even so, she needs her ass kicking for such sloppy text.
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by lyx2no, posted 08-08-2009 9:35 AM lyx2no has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024