Self Defeating Attitude or Empowering Humilty

This new thread addresses comments made by :ae: in the Why Belief? thread where he/she addresses the attitude of brokenness expressed by A_Christian. I've pasted my initial explanation below and will then bring in :ae:'s response to which I'll respond to it shortly.KevsterI respectfully disagree with your assessment of A_Christian's admission of weakness. Such realization of a person's frailty and or sinfulness is an accurate knowledge of our human condition that God gives those he's called to bring to himself. From my "born again Christian" perspective it is more a curse to not be aware of your condition and miss out on a personal relationship with God himself not to mention the eternal life side of things.
That such brokenness seems unfortunate to you echoes what we see in 1 Corithians 1:18: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."Where other religions appear to be beneficial does not surprise me as they are typically works or behavioral based. I think the man made religions probably compliment our fallen nature better than the Christian faith and therefore should be expected to bring more fleshly pleasure and contentment. Although there are certainly plenty of so called "Christians" out there trying to make the Christian faith a series of rules and regulations to live by.Living by the spirit of the Christian faith, which the NT so often exhorts Christian's to do, runs counter to all that the world teaches. It defies our human fleshly nature and is very much a struggle for most Christian's. It certainly was for me as it led to clinical depression. However, once I got the hang of it, namely living by the power of God instead of myself, I think I've come to enjoy life, albeit a very difficult one, in a way I never thought possible.I pray someday God moves on your heart to bring you to him as well. Personally, I find him irresistable!{Added link - Adminnemooseus}[This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 08-22-2003][This message has been edited by kevstersmith, 08-22-2003]

Re: That Is Unfortunate
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Welcome, Kevster! Myself I am also a relatively recent addition to this forum, and it excites me to see some new blood in the Christian camp -- especially another that appears quite capable of expressing his views as clearly and coherently as this your first post.
Kevstersmith writes:
I respectfully disagree with your assessment of A_Christian's admission of weakness. Such realization of a person's frailty and or sinfulness is an accurate knowledge of our human condition that God gives those he's called to bring to himself. From my "born again Christian" perspective it is more a curse to not be aware of your condition and miss out on a personal relationship with God himself not to mention the eternal life side of things.I understand that this is more-or-less fundamental to your worldview, but I think my comment illustrated precisely its detrimental effect on individuals. A person who believes they cannot "do right" will have a more difficult time actually doing right than a person who believes themselves capable.kevstersmith writes:
That such brokenness seems unfortunate to you echoes what we see in 1 Corithians 1:18: "For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God."Great propagandist, that Paul. Always skillfully poisoning the well.kevstersmith writes:
Where other religions appear to be beneficial does not surprise me as they are typically works or behavioral based. I think the man made religions probably compliment our fallen nature better than the Christian faith and therefore should be expected to bring more fleshly pleasure and contentment.So you concede that other religions have a greater measureable benefit than Christianity? That is what I infer from your statements. If we are comparing evidence, this means that there is greater evidence in favor of non-Christian worldviews by the very criteria that A_Christian put forth. If he(she?) was honest about regarding that evidence, then, s/he would not be Christian.Kevstersmith writes:
Living by the spirit of the Christian faith, which the NT so often exhorts Christian's to do, runs counter to all that the world teaches. It defies our human fleshly nature and is very much a struggle for most Christian's. It certainly was for me as it led to clinical depression. However, once I got the hang of it, namely living by the power of God instead of myself, I think I've come to enjoy life, albeit a very difficult one, in a way I never thought possible.How can you say that you enjoy living in this world when you've just spent a paragraph condemning its ways and your own "fleshly nature"?Kevstersmith writes:
I pray someday God moves on your heart to bring you to him as well.I thought that happened once. Turned out it was acid reflux.But seriously, I know that you have the best intentions in making that statement, but you could never convince me that I am as detestful of a creature as the Christian worldview regards me, and in return I wish that you will one day trust yourself enough to confidently assert your own worth and goodness. That, my friend, is true salvation.Blessings,::

...why is kevstersmith arguing with himself?

LOLWell, if you'd read your own threads, Dan, you'd know that this is a spin-off from an argument which began between myself and Kevstersmith and began to drift from your topic (see your "Why Belief?" thread). He started this thread by posting his initial post from that thread, and the second post here is simply a copy of my response to him. I imagine that right now Kevstersmith is formulating a response to it and we could expect to see it appear soon.Blessings,::

Oh, crap, I did start that thread!I'm gonna go read it!

:ae: writes:

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I understand that this is more-or-less fundamental to your worldview, but I think my comment illustrated precisely its detrimental effect on individuals. A person who believes they cannot "do right" will have a more difficult time actually doing right than a person who believes themselves capable.

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I think this is an accurate assessment for those that aren't Christian and haven't been born of the Spirit of God (John 3).However, for those of us that are believers such an attitude is the precursor to successfully experiencing the power of God in our day to day lives.2 Cor 12:9-10 illustrates this: "But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.":ae: writes:

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Great propagandist, that Paul. Always skillfully poisoning the well.

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An expected response from someone the bible considers to be fallen and perishing. Of course, if Christianity isn't anything more than a collection of imagined ideas and rituals the response makes sense too.:ae: writes:

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So you concede that other religions have a greater measureable benefit than Christianity? That is what I infer from your statements. If we are comparing evidence, this means that there is greater evidence in favor of non-Christian worldviews by the very criteria that A_Christian put forth. If he(she?) was honest about regarding that evidence, then, s/he would not be Christian.

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I would concede that other religions may have a measureable benefit over Christianity for those that have not been born again. In fact, I wouldn't recommend Christianity to anyone that has not been called to it by God Himself. Otherwise, the activities involved will likely leave a person with nothing more than Acid Reflux. On the other hand, I consider other religions to be utterly useless for born again believers. There is no way in heaven I'd trade their "measureable benefits" for what I have in Christ! From my prespective that would be like trading in my Mercedes for a skateboard.:ae: writes:

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How can you say that you enjoy living in this world when you've just spent a paragraph condemning its ways and your own "fleshly nature"?

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I wasn't condemning it so much as expressing the difficulty in adjusting to the "way of the spirit" that was born in me. For most of my Christian life things were pretty difficult. Things have since, to the glory of God, settled nicely and now I wouldn't trade it for the world.:ae: writes:

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I thought that happened once. Turned out it was acid reflux.

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That may very well have been the case....Consider 1 John 2:19: "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
":ae: writes:

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But seriously, I know that you have the best intentions in making that statement, but you could never convince me that I am as detestful of a creature as the Christian worldview regards me,

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I am not trying to convince you of your (as I see it) true nature. That would take an act of God, not Kevster. I am simply proclaiming biblical truth and praying for you.In John 6:44 Jesus says the samething: "No one can come to me UNLESS the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.":ae: writes:

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and in return I wish that you will one day trust yourself enough to confidently assert your own worth and goodness. That, my friend, is true salvation.

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Proverb 14:12: "There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death."I have tried that route for most of my life to no avail. Fortunately, God revealed to me that through that misplaced trust I was getting myself into a mess that only He could get me out of. For that I am eternally grateful.-Respectfully

Because I have too much time on my hands.

So... does that mean only kevster can reply to his posts? Brings that old adage to mind:Roses are red
Violets are blue
I'm schizophrenic
And so am I.------------------

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All the boys think she's a spy

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I was kidding. In case you aren't kidding read messages 3-5 for the full scoop.Ciao[This message has been edited by kevstersmith, 08-22-2003]

If I am to understand you correctly, then, you are asserting that really Christians believe that they can "do right" once they first believe that it is God who empowers them to do this. Or are you asserting that any "rightness" which a person performs through their actions is not of that individual's abilities at all, but it is instead the "power of God"? As poetic as that may be, its plainly contradictory. Paul might as well have said that "When circles are round, then they have corners." Good grief! The well doesn't need any more poisoning! True, but it isn't a dichotmoy. Your concession seems to beg the question saying, "other religions are more beneficial to those who don't realize that Chrisitanity is the most beneficial." No kidding. The problem is that the realtive benefit of Christianity compared to other religions is what is in question. More closely analagous would be trading the hope for a Mercedes in exchange for real Toyota now. Even then taking the Toyota now doesn't necessarily exclude all opportunity to obtain the hoped-for Mercedes. I'm always glad to hear that someone is happy, no matter what they believe, as long as their belief don't actually affect me or other against their will. No True Scotsman fallacy: No True Scotsman puts milk on his cereal. MacGregor puts milk on his cereal. Therefore MacGregor is not a true Scotsman. Again, I know you have only the best intentions, but honestly I find the assertion that I am (as a member of the human race) sinful and depraved and incapable of being good and worthy on my own quite insulting. According to all of our observations, even Christian ways lead to death, as do Muslim ways, and Wiccan ways, and Hindu ways, etc... This basically brings me back to my statements which prompted your first reponse. I always take personal testimonies (on any side of a religious evaluation) with a huge grain of salt. For ever Christian who reports being better off having converted I can cite an atheist claiming the same experience for his deconversion.Blessings,::

Yes.John 15:5 Jesus says: "...apart from me you can do nothing."In Phillipians 4:13 Paul, referring to Christ, says: "I can do everything through him who gives me strength."Your ignorance of this basic and fundamental tenent of the Christian faith reinforces my suspicion that you were not an authentic Christian. More on this later... Yes for the Christian, and, no for the unregenerated human.
________________________In response to the following verse:
2 Cor 12:9-10: "But he said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." True, so long as you omit the context set forth in the first sentence of the quoted verse where Paul is quoting what he heard from the risen Christ... namely, "my power is made perfect in (your)* weakness."*(Addition mine) What he did say has tremendous value to those of us that have been born again. However, to those that have not, both the verse and your statement here hold equal value. Care to elaborate? I think this is an inaccurate over-generalization. I'm saying that for those destined to be nothing more than objects of wrath, other religions are more beneficial. For these people (and many are they), spirit born Christianity is not available and therefore less beneficial compared to other religions. My apologies. I probably should have addressed the claims of the study you referenced in more detail earlier. Given my belief that many of those that claim to be Christians aren't authentic I consider a scientific study that tries to compare the relative benefits to be highly suspect. Now, certainly Muslims and the others involved in the study (that didn't take first place) might contend the same thing. But this, in my mind, only further adds to the difficulty in putting much stock into the results you mentioned. This analogy ignores the verb tense in my statement. "For what I have in Christ" refers to the present, not future. Although I certainly am also looking forward to what has been promised in scripture. Cute. Allow me to be more specific and direct.No true Christian fact: No True Christian lacks the spiritual birth referenced in John 3. :ae: lacked the spiritual birth of John 3. Therefore :ae: was never a true Christian in spite of the fact he may have hung out with some for a while.The spiritual birth I am talking about is THE point of no return. The fact that this happened in my life brought me into thinking that I had no plausable alternatives to the Christian faith in the midst of several years of intense medical difficulties. This event is what transformed my views of human nature being sinful and depraved from offensive and insulting to something I now embrace. This is hardly analagous to putting milk on cereal.Truth is, there are many imposters that claim or claimed to be Christians. Some stay and still call themselves Christians, some go and now call themselves Athiests or something else.Matthew 7:21-23: ""Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' " I understand that all this comes off that way and I apologize. I used to feel the same way about it. I think this is probably a risk you choose to take everytime you engage in a debate with a Christian. Wouldn't you agree? Intriguing! Tell me how you're able to see past the death on this earth as we currently see it. The verse refers to an eternal perspective notwithstanding those God has chosen to set free through the blood of his son. Can't say that I blame you. I used to take such testimonies without much interest as well.I think I already explained my views of the so-called "deconverted."Respectfully[This message has been edited by kevstersmith, 08-24-2003]

Yes, but you haven't explained how you would tell the difference between your "true Christians" and the fake ones before they deconvert. I mean, if even the fake ones think they're Christians, how are we to tell the difference?And for that matter, how do you know you're a true Christian yourself? How do you know that in a few years, you won't have changed your mind? After all I had as much Holy Spirit (or whatever) as you seem to, and I became an atheist.If it can happen to me, how can you be sure it won't happen to you? "Here but for the grace of God go you."

LOL. Very good point, even though I'm laughing.

I was also going to quote you saying that only God can reveal that "in me, that is, in my body, nothing good dwells." However, I couldn't find it, though I know you said something along those lines.Mostly, I consider 20th century Christianity a complete failure. I consider most of its tenets (it's "tenets," btw, not "tenents") to be false, the product of 2000 years of religious evolution, and I consider those tenets to be the cause of Christianity's failure. So I'm rarely found agreeing with anything Christians say on this board.I think I would be remiss, however, if I didn't say that I, too, consider the idea that in myself I can't do anything right for God to be at the very heart of following Christ, and it is the first lesson any disciple will learn. Without it, he can learn no others.I also agree that teaching it with words won't help someone "get it."For the record, though, Keyster, that's one of those rare things I would never talk about with those that are not disciples. It's way too precious to me. The fact is, Christ asks people to put their whole heart, mind, strength, and soul into obeying God, and he never tells them they can't. In fact, he tells them they must.That sounds horribly contradictory, but the path of discipleship is a pretty awesome thing, and some lessons are to be experienced, not taught, and certainly not tossed around in public debate.

Kevster, thank you for your thoughtful response. Hardly. I am familiar with several Christians who do not agree with you on this issue, and I did not while I was a Christian. Certainly the authenticity of one's faith does not hang on one's stance with regard to this one issue, does it? You might want to reconsider how you phrased this response, as it seems reasonable to infer from your statements that you believe that an "unregenerated human" can act rightly without the "power of God" whereas Christians cannot. Doesn't sound like much of an incentive to be Christian if in the process of regeneration one loses the ability to act independantly right. This does not resolve the plain contradiction in the last sentence. That Jesus was weak matters not to Paul's assertion that he himself is strong when he is weak which is plainly contradictory. I appreciate your honesty in these statements, but please note that I cannot find them convincing. Too often I am confronted with the "believe and you will see" argument which is obviously question begging. You said:

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An expected response from someone the bible considers to be fallen and perishing.

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Which I regarded as additional poisoning the well by setting up a false premise that my failure to see as you is a result of my fallen stature and perishing future. Yes, but among the comparable evidences one cannot include speculative conjectures regarding the consequences of holding a certain worldview. All you have in that case is an elaboration of Pascal's wager which is horrendously flawed. The plain, objective fact (which I haven't seen you dispute at all) is that other religions are measurably more beneficial than Christianity. Yet there have been studies which do not rely on the subjective reporting of recently converted individuals, and thus establish a reliable comparison for the benefit of being a practicing participant in a given religion. The study I have in mind registered Buddhists among the happiest religous persons, incidentally. If I am not mistaken, "what {you} have in Christ" right now is the hope for a certain future. If that is not it, what is it that you have which we can observe? That you inserted the word "fact" does not make these statements any less fallacious. The initial premise begs the question with regard to the criteria for being Christian, even more so because the criteria cannot be objectively observed. You're absolutely right since we can objectively observe whether or not any milk is on the cereal. The same cannot be said for your "spiritual birth." How can I be certain that you're a Christian, then? I agree, and I hold no contempt for you personally. Your last statement is irrelevant. I need not see "past the death on this earth" to know that every human will taste the only death which we know. That you wish to equivocate the meaning of "death" notwithstanding.Blessings,::