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Author Topic:   homosexuality and the Bible
mark24
Member (Idle past 4428 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 121 of 183 (51776)
08-22-2003 6:22 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Trump won
08-21-2003 6:57 PM


messenjah,

That doesnt mean it's genetic. It could have been a coincidence and obviously a life choice, if both of them choosed the same "way" that doesn't mean it's genetical.

Yes it does. The null hypothesis should show no higher a chance of the second twin being gay. There is, therefore the null-hypothesis is falsified. In simple terms, the only factor we have left to blame is a genetic link. The statistical tests show that chance, or coincidence can be reasonably eliminated as a factor, OK? That's the whole point! It was a study of many such twins, not one, & their environments were all different.

It's like having one hundred people saying the car that just passed was green, one say it was red, & you, who never saw the thing at all, side with the guy that said green!

Mark

------------------
"I can't prove creationism, but they can't prove evolution. It is [also] a religion, so it should not be taught....Christians took over the school board and voted in creationism. That can be done in any school district anywhere, and it ought to be done." Says Kent "consistent" Hovind in "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Trump won, posted 08-21-2003 6:57 PM Trump won has taken no action

A_Christian
Inactive Member


Message 122 of 183 (51822)
08-22-2003 11:31 AM


OK, so some people "may" have a genetic link to homosexuality.
That link may enable some to be creative or artistic. It may also
tend to make them gentle and of a sweet disposition. This in no
way proves that GOD endorses gay sex. It can also demonstrate that
sinful man will abuse and apply an otherwise perfect gift from GOD for
selfish and sinful purposes.

There is NO endorsement from GOD's WORD for the practice of
homosexual acts. In fact the story of Sodom & Gomorrah as found
in Genesis, chapter 19 should make anyone of an honest heart for
doing GOD's will shudder.

Jesus Christ himself in Matthew Chapter 19:3-12 and Mark 10:2-12,
Jesus gives FULL CREDIENCE TO GENESIS 2:24 and the institution of
marriage as ONLY FOR A MAN AND A WOMAN. Would a Homosexual
consider himself a eunuch? I don't think so...


Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by mark24, posted 08-22-2003 11:32 AM A_Christian has replied

mark24
Member (Idle past 4428 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 123 of 183 (51823)
08-22-2003 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by A_Christian
08-22-2003 11:31 AM


OK, so some people "may" have a genetic link to homosexuality.
That link may enable some to be creative or artistic. It may also
tend to make them gentle and of a sweet disposition. This in no
way proves that GOD endorses gay sex.

So why did he create a gay gene?

Mark


This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by A_Christian, posted 08-22-2003 11:31 AM A_Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by A_Christian, posted 08-22-2003 2:20 PM mark24 has replied

A_Christian
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 183 (51856)
08-22-2003 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by mark24
08-22-2003 11:32 AM


Mark24:

I think I made myself clear. Man calls it a "gay" gene and sinful
man has applied the traits to his own deviate lusts. This isn't
the world that GOD created. This is a fallen world populated by
sinful humans.

It seems that some would use the supposed finding of a "gay" gene
to blame GOD. Can a heterosexual blame GOD for making him an
adulterer or lusting fornicator? No, God didn't MAKE man to sin.

Homosexuality is an attempt to ruin & destroy real L O V E. The
kind of LOVE that causes one man to hug and kiss the cheek of another
whose dad just died. The kind of LOVE that says, I want nothing
(and takes nothing) and would cause one to give his life to save
his friend(s).

Homosexuality attempts to bring marriage DOWN to its level. It
suggests that a guy simply wants to bang a girl and thrust his tongue
down her throat. That isn't LOVE at all. That is LUST and GREED
and CHEAP THRILLS. Real LOVE says, you're safe with me, I will not
hurt you. I want what is BEST for you. I will protect you.
It isn't about who is on top and who is stronger and who is in charge.
GOD is in charge and the man is accountable to GOD and woman is to
HOLD the man accountable to GOD through her prayers and submission.

Homosexuality isn't "gay" at all. That is just a lie to hide the
truth. Homosexuality is anthing but gay, it is horrible and a real
pain in the butt! There is another example of an abused body part
that GOD intended for another purpose. Don't blame GOD for your
genes, ask GOD to forgive you and make HIM LORD of your life and
not S E X.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by mark24, posted 08-22-2003 11:32 AM mark24 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by :æ:, posted 08-22-2003 2:57 PM A_Christian has taken no action
 Message 131 by mark24, posted 08-22-2003 5:28 PM A_Christian has taken no action
 Message 132 by AdminBrian, posted 08-22-2003 5:32 PM A_Christian has taken no action

:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6418 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 125 of 183 (51863)
08-22-2003 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by A_Christian
08-22-2003 2:20 PM


My, my, my...
A_Christian writes:

This isn't
the world that GOD created.


So then you're NOT a creationist?

A_Christian writes:

Can a heterosexual blame GOD for making him an
adulterer or lusting fornicator? No, God didn't MAKE man to sin.


From your statements, I can deduce that you must not believe your God to be omnipotent nor omniscient since you assert that events happen against His will. Is this true? If my deduction is inaccurate, then these statements of yours are false.

A_Christian writes:

Homosexuality is an attempt to ruin & destroy real L O V E. The
kind of LOVE that causes one man to hug and kiss the cheek of another
whose dad just died. The kind of LOVE that says, I want nothing
(and takes nothing) and would cause one to give his life to save
his friend(s).


It is nothing of the sort. I know plenty of homosexual life-partners who display deeper love for eachother than many heterosexual couples. I can't say that I've ever seen a gay man with a black eye given to him by his partner, though I've seen plenty of women abused by their husbands.

A_Christian writes:

Homosexuality attempts to bring marriage DOWN to its level.


No, the pressure from the homosexual community to recognize homosexual marriage is an attempt to bring that aspect of society out of the dark ages from whence came your religion.

A_Christian writes:

It
suggests that a guy simply wants to bang a girl and thrust his tongue
down her throat.


How in the world do you infer THAT from it? Project much?

A_Christian writes:

Real LOVE says, you're safe with me, I will not
hurt you. I want what is BEST for you. I will protect you.


Homosexuals express and receive this type of love all the time.

A_Christian writes:

It isn't about who is on top and who is stronger and who is in charge.
GOD is in charge and the man is accountable to GOD and woman is to
HOLD the man accountable to GOD through her prayers and submission.


Didn't you just say that it wasn't about who is in charge? Why then did you go on to make several declarative statments establishing a ranking heirarchy? According to your initial assertion, we should disregard your subsequent statements. (Don't worry, I'm more-or-less doing that already)

A_Christian writes:

Homosexuality isn't "gay" at all. That is just a lie to hide the
truth. Homosexuality is anthing but gay, it is horrible and a real
pain in the butt!


Your opinion is noted. Thankfully, we do not have to accept your opinion, and frankly, it reveals more about your ignorance than anything.

A_Christian writes:

There is another example of an abused body part
that GOD intended for another purpose.


Which God are we talking about again? I can't seem to tell. From your opening statements in this post, it seems you're not speaking of the God of the Bible, or the one commonly believed by Christians.

BTW - Did this God of yours intend for us to receive herniated intervertebral disks as a consequence of the imperfect function of the vertical spinal column?

A_Christian writes:

Don't blame GOD for your
genes, ask GOD to forgive you and make HIM LORD of your life and
not S E X.


Again, you must not be a Christian creationist if you do not believe that God imparted out genetics unto us (Where would Adam get his genes if not from God?). If you DO believe that, and that thereby humans have been imparted with defective or faulty genes (according to you), it should be this God of yours apologizing to us.

Also, while I certainly enjoy sex, it is not "LORD" of my life. There is no "LORD" of my life but me.

Blessings,

:æ:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by A_Christian, posted 08-22-2003 2:20 PM A_Christian has taken no action

Jake22
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 183 (51866)
08-22-2003 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by Rrhain
08-22-2003 3:21 AM


Interesting info, thanks. Where could I read up on Exodus International's founders, poster boy, etc?

quote:
Yeah, yeah, there are lots of "testimonials" about the so-called "ex-gays," but long term study of those who go through "reparative therapy" find that they don't actually change their sexual orientation. Instead, they wind up sublimating it at best. When asked if they still find people of the same sex arousing, the answer is yes. The thoughts and feelings never go away.

I personally find it hard to believe that homosexuality is a choice (although more power to you, messengah). My mind is too indoctrinated with economics, so the rational actors assumption is beaten into my way of thinking. One may argue that there's a certain taboo allure to sexual perversions, and that may be, but I don't readily accept either explanation until more conclusive (in my mind) work is done. For now I lean toward non-choice explanations for the most part, notably that of attributing homosexuality to developmental experiences in the early years of life.

Assuming homosexuality is genetic, it is not surprising that homosexuals oftentimes don't change their sexual orientation with therapy. The fact that some do become attracted to the opposite sex and lead happy marriages is impressive/baffling yet certainly not the norm. That fact aside, it's not much different than alcoholsm in some respects. There are alcoholics who no longer face much of a temptation/addiction to drink, but for some (notably those with the gene) the urge is never gone, despite years and years of being sober. That's why AA and other such programs are lifelong endeavors, to offer support in spite of temptation.

Many people who believe the homosexual lifestyle to be sinful would consider Exodus International a success if it helps people refrain from homosexual conduct despite temptations. Getting rid of temptation itself is not the issue for many, just like AA.

Okay, back to work. Thanks again for that info, Rrhain. Hopefully I can read up on that EI stuff.

Jake


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Rrhain, posted 08-22-2003 3:21 AM Rrhain has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by A_Christian, posted 08-22-2003 4:33 PM Jake22 has taken no action

A_Christian
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 183 (51886)
08-22-2003 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Jake22
08-22-2003 3:09 PM


ae:

What you THINK reveals your own ignorance of the Bible, GOD, and
spiritual matters and my personality in general.

I am a Fundamentalist, Bible believing Christian. I believe that
a literal interpetation is to be accepted where terms such as
"LIKE" or "AS" are not applied in the text. That Bible text
must be used to explain Bible text and that your opinion or mine
is irrelevant.

I believe that GOD Created a PERFECT UNIVERSE (free of sin and
corruption). I Believe GOD CREATED Adam & Eve perfect and without
sin. I believe they were tempted (by Satan) and FELL from that perfect estate.

I believe that GOD's perfect world was given over to Satan and that
perfection became corruption and that we are born in sin are dead
both spiritually and our body is dying physically. It is only
by OUR acceptance of Jesus Christ as OUR PERSONAL SAVIOR that WE
are SAVED for ALL ETERNITY.

It isn't my place to say you are not a Christian so don't judge me
without Scriptural back-up. I might add that I also believe that
There was a WORLD WIDE FLOOD and that NOAH was told of GOD to
build an ark. I'm very thankful he listened to GOD, unlike some.
And Christ is LORD of my life unlike yourself. I pray you reconsider
before too long...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Jake22, posted 08-22-2003 3:09 PM Jake22 has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-22-2003 4:44 PM A_Christian has taken no action
 Message 129 by :æ:, posted 08-22-2003 5:08 PM A_Christian has taken no action
 Message 130 by Brian, posted 08-22-2003 5:10 PM A_Christian has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 128 of 183 (51887)
08-22-2003 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by A_Christian
08-22-2003 4:33 PM


quote:
I believe that a literal interpetation is to be accepted where terms such as "LIKE" or "AS" are not applied in the text.

Well, yeah then. Screw the bible as metaphor, you don't even like similies.

quote:
I believe that GOD Created a PERFECT UNIVERSE (free of sin and
corruption). I Believe GOD CREATED Adam & Eve perfect and without
sin. I believe they were tempted (by Satan) and FELL from that perfect estate.

Actually, as a good literalist, you believe that they were tempted by the serpent. Unless I'm mistaken, Satan isn't mentioned by name even once in Genesis.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by A_Christian, posted 08-22-2003 4:33 PM A_Christian has taken no action

:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6418 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 129 of 183 (51892)
08-22-2003 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by A_Christian
08-22-2003 4:33 PM


Went fishing... got a bite...
A_Christian writes:

What you THINK reveals your own ignorance of the Bible, GOD, and
spiritual matters and my personality in general.


Perhaps, yet it also reveals firm grasp on rational thinking on my part.

A_Christian writes:

I am a Fundamentalist, Bible believing Christian.


...and the stereotype continues to propogate...

A_Christian writes:

I believe that
a literal interpetation is to be accepted where terms such as
"LIKE" or "AS" are not applied in the text.


Dan Carroll already provided you a stellar example of your own internally inconsistent statements.

A_Christian writes:

I believe that GOD Created a PERFECT UNIVERSE (free of sin and
corruption). I Believe GOD CREATED Adam & Eve perfect and without
sin. I believe they were tempted (by Satan) and FELL from that perfect estate.


I'll assume you meant "serpent" and not Satan in order to honor your insistence on literalism. Regardless, in a perfect universe no possibility for imperfection can exist lest it was not perfect to begin with. You're special pleading in the case of the serpent. A "perfect" serpent would not tempt Eve.

A_Christian writes:

I believe that GOD's perfect world was given over to Satan and that
perfection became corruption and that we are born in sin are dead
both spiritually and our body is dying physically.


I suspect that you believe that without sin no death would exist. Is that the case?

In addition, you failed to address the incompatibility of your assertions with the omni-capabilities presumed of your deity from my last post. Nothing happens against the will of an omnipotent and omniscient being.

A_Christian writes:

It isn't my place to say you are not a Christian so don't judge me
without Scriptural back-up.


My statements simply compared you to the majority of Christians I've encountered. Most of them hold that God created this universe. You stated that you didn't believe this, therefore I reasonably deduced that you are not a Christian according to the common definition of the term.

A_Christian writes:

I might add that I also believe that
There was a WORLD WIDE FLOOD and that NOAH was told of GOD to
build an ark.


This is easily falsified by tracing back Ancient Egyptian history which continues uninterupted for nearly 10,000 years or more into the past. (Of course, I'm assuming you hold to a belief in a ±6000 year old earth, and that the flood happened ±2500 years before present) Actually, the story of a global flood was falsified geologically some 100 years ago by Chrisitian geologists who set out to seek evidence for it.

A_Christian writes:

I'm very thankful he listened to GOD, unlike some.
And Christ is LORD of my life unlike yourself. I pray you reconsider
before too long...


Is that a veiled threat of fire and brimstone? I honestly hope it is. I haven't had a good laugh at Christian scare tactics in a long time.

Blessings,

:æ:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by A_Christian, posted 08-22-2003 4:33 PM A_Christian has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by :æ:, posted 08-22-2003 6:09 PM :æ: has taken no action

Brian
Member (Idle past 4193 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 130 of 183 (51893)
08-22-2003 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by A_Christian
08-22-2003 4:33 PM


You seem to be unaware that you posted a contradiction in this post:

It isn't my place to say you are not a Christian

You follow this with:

And Christ is LORD of my life unlike yourself.

Maybe you need to be less emotional when typing and read what you are posting.

You also contradict one of Jesus teachings:

Matthew 7:1-5 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Amen!

Also, could you tell me why you believe this?

I believe that GOD Created a PERFECT UNIVERSE (free of sin and
corruption).

A couple of problems here. Where does the Bible say that the universe was crerated perfect, and how could it be free from sin if sin was an option? Surely sin must have existed if mankind was able to choose it?

Thanks

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by A_Christian, posted 08-22-2003 4:33 PM A_Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by A_Christian, posted 08-22-2003 5:35 PM Brian has taken no action

mark24
Member (Idle past 4428 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 131 of 183 (51896)
08-22-2003 5:28 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by A_Christian
08-22-2003 2:20 PM


A Christian,

I think I made myself clear. Man calls it a "gay" gene and sinful
man has applied the traits to his own deviate lusts. This isn't
the world that GOD created. This is a fallen world populated by
sinful humans.

Good grief. Where to begin?

IT IS THE WORLD THAT GOD CREATED, ACCORDING TO YOU. If gays are such an abomination to him he should have created a world where it couldn't happen, he's supposed to be omnipotent, isn't he? You can't have it both ways.

There exists a heritable trait, or suite of heritable traits, that predisposes people to homosexuality. The statistical link established from the identical twins studies shows this. The only thing these individuals share is their DNA, & they have a higher than average chance of both of them being gay when one is gay. Do you understand? It is a study that has carefully chosen it's subjects to see if the only identical thing that these people share predisposes them to homosexuality. It does.

This is a carefully crafted experiment that leaves the individuals with only one thing in common, so that any positive results can only be attributed to that alone. Get it? Do you now understand why identical twins that were separated were used?

It does not therefore follow that "mans deviant lust" is responsible. It follows that mans DNA is responsible. Any assertions beyond that are evidenceless, unsupported nonsense.

Mark

------------------
"I can't prove creationism, but they can't prove evolution. It is [also] a religion, so it should not be taught....Christians took over the school board and voted in creationism. That can be done in any school district anywhere, and it ought to be done." Says Kent "consistent" Hovind in "Unmasking the False Religion of Evolution Chapter 6."


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by A_Christian, posted 08-22-2003 2:20 PM A_Christian has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Brian, posted 08-22-2003 5:36 PM mark24 has taken no action

AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 132 of 183 (51898)
08-22-2003 5:32 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by A_Christian
08-22-2003 2:20 PM


Hi A_Christian,

I think we all know your stance on homosexuality so could you tone down the 'gay bashing' and try and be a bit more senstive with your choice of words? All of the things you say about homosexuality can be said in a less offensive way and, whether you like it or not, homosexuals are real people with real feelings, so your words may be hurting a lot of very sincere and decent people.

You might want to start including the phrase 'some homosexuals' rather than making sweeping generalisations. Also, you may like to start saying 'I believe that...' as in, 'I believe that homosexuality attempts to bring marriage down to its level' rather than stating an absolute.

If I were to say that Christians do not believe in the Trinity then you would quite rightly be upset and point out that I was incorrect. True I am incorrect to state that all Christians do not believe in the Trinity, but it is true that some Christians do not believe in the Trinity.

In the same way, old homosexual men do not prey on teenage boys, perhaps a few might do that, but to say that they all do is incorrect.

Please can you be a bit more selective with your choice of words?

Many Thanks.

AdminBrian


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by A_Christian, posted 08-22-2003 2:20 PM A_Christian has taken no action

A_Christian
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 183 (51899)
08-22-2003 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by Brian
08-22-2003 5:10 PM


ae:

Get yourself a STRONGS Concordance and look up "Serpant".
Remember, I use the Bible and not my opinion to understand the
Scriptures----not Dan Carroll.

I see you believe the word of Egyptian Myth over the Word Of GOD.
Hey, if Nixon could lie----I'm sure Pharoahs did too...

Oh, and scientifically we now know that the Sphinx was once totally
submerged and historically the myths surrounding Osirus sound a lot
like a FLOOD tale....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Brian, posted 08-22-2003 5:10 PM Brian has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by :æ:, posted 08-22-2003 5:48 PM A_Christian has replied
 Message 136 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-22-2003 5:49 PM A_Christian has taken no action
 Message 145 by truthlover, posted 08-22-2003 6:34 PM A_Christian has taken no action

Brian
Member (Idle past 4193 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 134 of 183 (51901)
08-22-2003 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by mark24
08-22-2003 5:28 PM


Hi Mark,

IT IS THE WORLD THAT GOD CREATED, ACCORDING TO YOU. If gays are such an abomination to him he should have created a world where it couldn't happen, he's supposed to be omnipotent, isn't he? You can't have it both ways.

I think in A_Christian's worldview that God didnt create the world with the option to be gay, that option only entered the world after the Fall of Man.

The fact that the Fall is littered with logical flaws is neither here nor there.

Brian.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by mark24, posted 08-22-2003 5:28 PM mark24 has taken no action

:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6418 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 135 of 183 (51904)
08-22-2003 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by A_Christian
08-22-2003 5:35 PM


A_Christian writes:

Get yourself a STRONGS Concordance and look up "Serpant".


Why would I need to that if you insist it should be read literally? Doesn't it literally say "serpent"? Where does Genesis literally say "Satan"?

A_Christian writes:

Remember, I use the Bible and not my opinion to understand the
Scriptures


Then why would you or I need a concordance? Is the concordance part of the original Bible texts?

A_Christian writes:

I see you believe the word of Egyptian Myth over the Word Of GOD.


Not at all. I believe hard evidence excavated by modern archaeologists and the various independant dating methods that place them in history exactly in accordance with written Egyptian history over an account which shows no evidence of ever having occurred as you describe it.

A_Christian writes:

Hey, if Nixon could lie----I'm sure Pharoahs did too...


Maybe, but thankfully the Pharoahs didn't write the histories, and we can corroborate them with present day excavation and independant and precisely calibrated dating methods.

A_Christian writes:

Oh, and scientifically we now know that the Sphinx was once totally
submerged


Supply the evidence of which you speak.

A_Christian writes:

and historically the myths surrounding Osirus sound a lot
like a FLOOD tale....


Yeah and the Noachian flood tale reads a lot like a rip-off of the Gilgamesh story. So what?

Blessings,

:æ:


This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by A_Christian, posted 08-22-2003 5:35 PM A_Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by A_Christian, posted 08-22-2003 6:19 PM :æ: has taken no action

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