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Author Topic:   homosexuality and the Bible
Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 12 of 183 (51081)
08-19-2003 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by truthlover
08-19-2003 8:45 AM


Hi TL,
I think that there is really only one unambiguous reference to homosexuality in the Bible and that would be the reference in Romans 1:26-27:
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Regarding all the other references to ‘homosexuality’, I think that they are open to more than one interpretation, but Romans 1:26-27 is very explicit.
In the Old Testament, Lev 18:22, 20:13, and the Holiness Code (Lev 17-26), are the only specific condemnations of homosexual acts in the OT. The Holiness Code forbids acts that are ‘abominations’ (to'eba), which are ritual uncleanness or sins associated with idolatrous gentiles (2 Kgs 16:3, Isa 44:19). The reference to homosexual acts may, be a reference to otherwise unknown sexual acts associated with pagan shrines.
The KJV used the word ‘sodomites’, which has obvious homosexual connotations, in Deut 23:17-18, 1 Kgs 14:24, 15:12, 22:46 and 2 Kgs 23:7. There is no justification for such a translation. The term in question, qades, simply means a male cultic figure, probably a prostitute, whose functions correspond to the female cultic figures also mentioned in the texts. There is absolutely no indication of homosexual activity in the texts.
The Sodom story in Gen 19:1-26 has been interpreted as referring to homosexual acts, the substitute offer of Lot's daughters has clear sexual implications. But if homosexual acts were intended they were clearly of a certain type, same sex rape for example, which was intended to show the dominance of the men of Sodom over these strangers.
OT references to the moral resentment felt toward Sodom, Ezekiel 16:49-50, Isa L 10, 3:9, Jer 23:14, refer to moral and social corruption, cynical selfishness, and lack of justice in Sodom, but make no reference to sexual sins of any sort. It is only in the first century CE (Philo and Josephus), when Jews were coming into contact with the homosexual practices accepted in the Hellenistic world, that the Sodom story was interpreted in terms of ‘sexual sins'. These sexual references were not, however, necessarily homosexual. Sodom's sin is described as ‘licentiousness’ and ‘lust of defiling passion’ in 2 Peter 2:4-10, and Jude refers to their indulging in ‘strange flesh’ which is more than likely a reference to the possible sexual relationship between humans and angels.
The NT references to homosexuality came at a time when even Hellenistic writers (e.g., Seneca and Plutarch) were increasingly critical of the exploitation and self-indulgence of homosexual acts directed against slaves and young boys.
1 Cor 6:9-10 (. I Tim 1:10) are often regarded as referring to homosexual acts, but in fact the exact nature of what is condemned is not clear. In I Cor 6:9-10 two terms are used. Malakoi, which you pointed out, has as a basic meaning "soft" or "weak," and there is no compelling reason to translate the term as ‘effeminate,’ which is a euphemism referring to the subordinate partner in a homosexual relationship. While not a technical term for pederasty, malakoi is occasionally used in the first century C.E. to describe people involved in pederastic practices.
Arsenokoitai is a combination of words meaning ‘male’ and ‘sexual intercourse,’ but the precise nature of this sexual activity is not known for certain. The passages may be taken to refer to male sexual activity such as prostitution, or pederasty, but whether such prostitution included homosexual prostitution is not certain. What is quite clear in these texts is the condemnation of exploitive sexual acts such as prostitution, whether heterosexual or homosexual, and the use of children as sexual objects by adults.
So I believe that Rom 1:26-27 is the only unquestionable reference to homosexual acts in the NT. Here same sex acts that are contrary to nature, or contrary to human custom, are seen as the result of a denial of God's sovereignty. Modern applicability of this passage, however, depends upon the weight one gives to the social context of this passage and the possibility that Paul is alluding to the abusive, exploitive forms of homosexual behavior-e.g., the holding of slaves as sexual objects, sex with young boys characteristic of the disbelieving Hellenistic world.
Both OT and NT writers would certainly have assumed heterosexual relations as a social and religious norms. Heterosexual marriages were arranged early and usually without consultation with children. Biblical references to sexual activity (e.g., Gen 1-3) take for granted that they are heterosexual.
Homosexual activity associated with pagan worship and exploitative homosexual activity are clearly condemned by the Bible. What may be debatable is whether involuntary homosexual tendencies or fully commited loving same sex relationships between consenting adults was condemned. I don’t think the Bible addresses these two issues as they are probaby more concerned with modern day societies.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by truthlover, posted 08-19-2003 8:45 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by truthlover, posted 08-19-2003 5:57 PM Brian has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 15 of 183 (51091)
08-19-2003 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by crashfrog
08-19-2003 11:51 AM


Hi Crash,
What we as non-believers have to remember is that to a Christian the Bible is the fountain of all truth and knowledge. The Bible believer would claim that gay sex of any kind is ultimately the result of the Fall of Man.
Bible believers would not go for the gay gene idea because they believe that men and women choose to engage in homosexual acts rather than it being in their nature.
I agree that it is rather sad but it is based on biblical teachings.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2003 11:51 AM crashfrog has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 57 of 183 (51415)
08-20-2003 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Dan Carroll
08-20-2003 5:43 PM


Hi Dan,
As for "nothing to do with marriage," it's largely Christian fundies keeping homosexuals from getting married. Can't blame them for your actions.
I think that there was recently a homosexual marrige in a church in California? Do you know anything about that?
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-20-2003 5:43 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-20-2003 5:59 PM Brian has replied
 Message 78 by Rrhain, posted 08-21-2003 12:10 PM Brian has replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 59 of 183 (51420)
08-20-2003 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Dan Carroll
08-20-2003 5:59 PM


I have a vague recollection of it, I may be mistaken but I will look into it. There's reference to a gay marriage here Canoe.Com
I am pretty positive that there have been a few gay marriages in some churches, I was discussing the possibility that Jesus was gay on another forum a while ago, but I got banned LOL, so I couldnt access the site to read the follow ups!
I will have a look tomorrow and get back to you, unless someone else posts confirmation of gay couples beingmarried in a church.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Dan Carroll, posted 08-20-2003 5:59 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 83 of 183 (51538)
08-21-2003 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Rrhain
08-21-2003 12:10 PM


Hi Rrhian,
Hope you are well. I have been unable to find anything to support what I said, I definatetly have a vague recollection of it, I must have been confusing it with something else. Thanks for the help.
To everyone that is reading the thread, I retract the statement regarding the gay marriage in a church.
I also apologise for wasting your time if you were looking for references to it on the Net.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Rrhain, posted 08-21-2003 12:10 PM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by doctrbill, posted 08-21-2003 1:27 PM Brian has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 89 of 183 (51593)
08-21-2003 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Trump won
08-21-2003 3:46 PM


hi,
That was the most pointless comment I have ever seen.
Don't take this the wrong way, but this is a good example of the difference in the intellectual capabilities between adults and children. You are not equipped yet with the ability to think abstractly, people of your age just love 'concrete' facts. It is not your fault, it is just the way our brains develop, according to Piaget anyway.
Rrhain's response is actually a very good one, and one that an adult can 'decypher', you are probably the only one that didnt get the jist of his comments!
He basically blew the 'free-will defence' out of the water with his 'pointless comment'.
It is good that you are participaring in these debates, and I take my hat off to you, but you are at a slight disadvantage on ocassion, but I admire your determination.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Trump won, posted 08-21-2003 3:46 PM Trump won has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 130 of 183 (51893)
08-22-2003 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by A_Christian
08-22-2003 4:33 PM


You seem to be unaware that you posted a contradiction in this post:
It isn't my place to say you are not a Christian
You follow this with:
And Christ is LORD of my life unlike yourself.
Maybe you need to be less emotional when typing and read what you are posting.
You also contradict one of Jesus teachings:
Matthew 7:1-5 1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Amen!
Also, could you tell me why you believe this?
I believe that GOD Created a PERFECT UNIVERSE (free of sin and
corruption).
A couple of problems here. Where does the Bible say that the universe was crerated perfect, and how could it be free from sin if sin was an option? Surely sin must have existed if mankind was able to choose it?
Thanks
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by A_Christian, posted 08-22-2003 4:33 PM A_Christian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by A_Christian, posted 08-22-2003 5:35 PM Brian has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4981 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 134 of 183 (51901)
08-22-2003 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by mark24
08-22-2003 5:28 PM


Hi Mark,
IT IS THE WORLD THAT GOD CREATED, ACCORDING TO YOU. If gays are such an abomination to him he should have created a world where it couldn't happen, he's supposed to be omnipotent, isn't he? You can't have it both ways.
I think in A_Christian's worldview that God didnt create the world with the option to be gay, that option only entered the world after the Fall of Man.
The fact that the Fall is littered with logical flaws is neither here nor there.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by mark24, posted 08-22-2003 5:28 PM mark24 has not replied

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