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Author Topic:   Fact Theory Falacy
wj
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 136 (4897)
02-18-2002 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by TrueCreation
02-16-2002 2:33 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
"What famous scientists who were creationists (POST darwin, if you please, preferably in the last 50 years or so)?"
--This is a good book on the subject: In Six Days - Why 50 Scientists Choose to Believe in Creation - http://shop.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/AIGUS.storefront/en/product/10-2-117

TC, note that toff asked about FAMOUS scientists who believe in creationism. The 50 cited in John Aston's book are hardly famous, except some for being creationists. Here is an interesting review of Ashton's book by Colin Groves: http://home.austarnet.com.au/stear/cg_in_six_days.htm
He makes the following interesting and pertinent observations about the 50:
"There are 9 biologists, 13 others connected with the life sciences, and 28 working in other sciences. Of the "other life scientists" (not strict biologists), five were trained in biochemistry, two in medicine, two in horticultural/agricultural science, and one each in genetics, organic chemistry, forestry and orthodontics. Of the 28 - the majority - trained in some field other than the life sciences, we have six trained in chemistry (not organic), five in some form of engineering, five in some branch of physics, three in meteorology, three in geology, two in geophysics, and one each in mathematics, geography, hydrometallurgy and information science."
It appears that creationsists in fields directly related to evolutionary science are a bit thin on the ground.
"Put them in perspective a bit. Of those nine biologists, five were trained at least in part at religious foundation universities or colleges of one kind or another: one at Loma Linda, one at Pacific Union College, one at both Andrews University and George Mason University, two at Wheaton College (and one of them at Houghton College in addition); only four received their entire training at what I’d call "proper universities", and some of them specify that their classes in evolution were poor in some way - a hectoring or poorly prepared lecturer, for instance. Of the 12 (excluding Hosken) others connected with the life sciences, four were trained at religious institutions (Loma Linda and Andrews again, Dordt College, and Loyola University), and eight at "proper universities". Of the other 28, only three trained at religious institutions (Loyola again, Loma Linda yet again, and Phillips University), and all the rest went to mainline universities, polytechnics and so on. Could there be some significance here? Might it be that a biologist is much less inclined than others to be a creationist unless actually trained at an institution with a creationist tendency?"
"And how did they become creationists? ... Of those who do give their histories, no fewer than 17 were brought up as creationists; one was converted while he was in the U.S.Navy, before starting university; five were converted during their university careers; four were converted later in life (one of them by his wife). It is fair to say that, inasfar as one can tell from reading their own words, all of those who were converted were already devout, and simply waiting to be pushed... Let us note that not one of them purports to have become a creationist as a result of his or her own research."
Groves' analysis of why the 50 scientists are creationists is also revealing but I leave it to the interested reader to pursue for themselves. But one piece is worth repeating here:
"Less forthright, but still quite a cut above the usual dismal crowd, is Elaine Kennedy, who begins her chapter, "As a geologist, I do not find much evidence for the existence of a fiat creation. I just have not found any geologic data that convinces me that God spoke and 'it was'" (p.293). She then goes on to say how she struggled with radiometric dating and has finally concluded that such dates are interpretations, not data, but "Those of us who believe in a short chronology and a six-day creation do not have an adequate explanation for radiometric dates" (p.294)."
It appears that those creationists with good scientific training have to go into a state of denial to enable them to reconcile scientific evidence and 6 day creationism.
I suppose Ashton did the best he could with the material he had available to him. The end result is hardly a ringing endorsement of a convincing scientific basis for creationism and against evolution by probably some the the best scientifically qualified creationists alive today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by TrueCreation, posted 02-16-2002 2:33 PM TrueCreation has not replied

  
wj
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 136 (5097)
02-19-2002 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by toff
02-18-2002 6:06 AM


Toff, I am afraid that, like many things which creationists are unable to provide a satisfactory answer to, a position of denial has been adopted. If your question is ignored for long enough, it will simply disappear from view and can be safely forgotten, as if the question had never been asked, and the awkward lack of an answer will not linger, to raise doubt in the minds of the thoughtful and uncommitted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by toff, posted 02-18-2002 6:06 AM toff has not replied

  
wj
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 136 (5192)
02-20-2002 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by toff
02-20-2002 2:35 AM


Are we allowed to assume that, in the absence of any substantive answer, that there has been no famous scientist has been a creationist in the last 50 years?
Is this the result of discrimination against creationists and their works, a conspiracy to ignore creationists' scientific findings, a complete brainwashing of the scientific community to unthinkingly accept evolutionary theory or the failure of creationism to provide a consistent, scientifically plausible alternative to evolutionary theory?
It is interesting to see the number of persons who are brought up as creationists, receive an education in science, critically examine the "science" of creationism and ultimately reject it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by toff, posted 02-20-2002 2:35 AM toff has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by toff, posted 02-21-2002 9:49 AM wj has not replied
 Message 112 by doctrbill, posted 02-21-2002 11:16 AM wj has not replied

  
wj
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 136 (5392)
02-24-2002 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by Cobra_snake
02-23-2002 11:46 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Cobra_snake:
Would Arthur E. Wilder-Smith count? He had 3 Doctorates.
Here's more detail on Arthur E. Wilder-Smith from http://www.thewordfortoday.org/wildersmith.html
"Biography
A..E. Wilder-Smith studied natural sciences at Oxford, England. He received his first doctorate in Physical Organic Chemistry at Reading University, England, 1941. During World War II, he joined the Research department of ICI in England. After the war, he became Countess of Lisburne Memorial Fellow at the University of London. Subsequently, Dr. Wilder-Smith was appointed Director of Research for a Swiss pharmaceutical company. Later he was elected to teach Chemotherapy and Pharmacology at the Medical School of the University of Geneva for which position he received his ``habitation" (the senior examination required for professorial appointments to European continental universities). At Geneva, he earned his second doctorate, followed by a third doctorate from the ETH (a senior university in Switzerland) in Zurich.
In 1957-1958 Wilder-Smith was Visiting Assistant Professor at the Medical Centre of the University of Illinois, 1959-1961 Visting Full Professor of Pharmacology of the University of Bergen Medical School in Norway. After a further two years at the University of Geneva, he was appointed Full Professor of Pharmacology at the University of Illinois Medical Centre. Here he received in three succeeding years - three ``Golden Apple Awards" for the best course of lectures, together with four senior lecturer awards for the best series of year lectures.
Dr. Wilder-Smith's last Golden Apple award was inscribed, ``He made us not only better scientists, but also better men."
Curriculum Vitae
Creationist, Chemist, & Lecturer
Ph.D. in physical organic chemistry at University of Reading, England (1941)
Dr.es.Sc. in pharmacological sciences from Eidgenossische Technische Hochschule (Swiss Federal Institute of Technology) in Zurich
D.Sc. in pharmacological sciences from University of Geneva (1964)
F.R.I.C. (Fellow of the Royal Institute of Chemistry) Professorships held at numerous institutions including: University of Illinois Medical School Center (Visiting Full Professor of Pharmacology, 1959-61, received 3 "Golden Apple" awards for the best course of lectures), University of Geneva School of Medicine, University of Bergen (Norway) School of Medicine, Hacettepe University (Ankara, Turkey) Medical School, etc.
Former Director of Research for a Swiss pharmaceutical company
Presented the 1986 Huxley Memorial Lecture at the invitation of the University of Oxford
Author or co-author of over 70 scientific publications and more than 30 books published in 17 languages
NATO three-star general
Deceased
Dr. Wilder-Smith was featured in an award-winning film and video series called ORIGINS: How the World Came to Be "
The difficulty in assessing whether he was "famous" is that he doesn't appear to have gained any fame from his scientific work (I suspect none of his 70 scientific publications dealt with creation science) but is famous as being a highly qualified creationist pin-up. His formal qualifications in organic chemistry apparently allowed him to offer creationist views on cosmogeny and thermodynamics.
As a person with some interest in science but no great contact with creationism, I can say that I have never heard of him, except in connection with his creationist apologia.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by Cobra_snake, posted 02-23-2002 11:46 PM Cobra_snake has not replied

  
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