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Author Topic:   EXPELLED: No Intelligence Allowed - Science Under Attack
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 388 of 438 (518904)
08-09-2009 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 386 by traderdrew
08-09-2009 12:33 PM


Re: Creation "science" again
You mean to tell me that out of all the atheists that exist in the world not one of them believes in guided transpermia?
I don't know. You brought it up like you knew some big secret and you could show something(I am not sure what). Then you bring up Crick and you were totally debunked. So since you brought it up how about providing some evidence.
The point that I was really trying to make was Darwinism can be used as a religion.
But you do not provide any evidence. Just unsupported assertions.
Darwinism isn't a religion but when faith is added to it to the point when you think it disproves the existence or the need of an intelligent designer, then it is religion.
WTF? Faith? The Theory Evolution has no basis in faith, its basis is in scientific evidence. Please show this faith of which you speak.
I noticed there have been posts on this forum that essentially say that ID should be disqualified on the basis of religion. If this is so then I could say that everything that Richard Dawkins says in his books shouldn't carry any merit but I don't.
The two things are no where near equal. Is anyone trying to get Dawkins taught in school? Does Dawkins have some doctrine of belief based on his books? He is an atheistic, scientist with very strong viewpoints. ID wants to supplant evolution in schools. Not equivalent.
Id and its proponents claim an Intelligent designer started it all and designed(created) the species of the world. This is supernatural. You believe in a supernatural designer. You can call it what you will. If you claim you do not believe in the wedge document or the principles of the leading ID groups then you are a stooge being used by them. You are using their arguments which are rooted in religion. Which are rooted in fundamentalist christianity.
You claim to be a follower of druidism. Which flavor do you follow? Druidism can mean many things. Ultimately follows of druidism believe in a god or gods. SO I think it is easy to see how your belief in ID is influenced by your religious beliefs.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by traderdrew, posted 08-09-2009 12:33 PM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by traderdrew, posted 08-09-2009 1:38 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 392 by traderdrew, posted 08-12-2009 12:11 PM Theodoric has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 391 of 438 (518909)
08-09-2009 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by traderdrew
08-09-2009 1:38 PM


Re: Creation "science" again
Although you do have some points in some of your posts, I think we agree to disagree and there is no point in further arguing with our disagreements. I will let you have the last word.
So you are not willing to provide any backing for the arguments you presented? That is very dissapointing. I guess I have to question all of your arguments and assertions if you are not willing to defend them.
Oh, I don't disagree. Until you can provide some evidence for your assertions, I think the logical conclusion is you are wrong.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by traderdrew, posted 08-09-2009 1:38 PM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by traderdrew, posted 08-12-2009 12:16 PM Theodoric has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 401 of 438 (519251)
08-12-2009 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by traderdrew
08-12-2009 12:16 PM


Re: Creation "science" again
I think I am starting to understand you now. Work with the facts because the facts talk and the rest of it walks. Is that how you think?
I have no idea what the hell that means.
But do think that facts are very important. Evidence is very important. Subjective feelings are not worth much. Everyone has different ideas and impressions of everything. We nee to look at the underlying reality, the facts if you will, in order to figure out what is what. The scientific method helps us to do this.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by traderdrew, posted 08-12-2009 12:16 PM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 410 by traderdrew, posted 08-13-2009 10:58 AM Theodoric has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 402 of 438 (519252)
08-12-2009 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by traderdrew
08-12-2009 12:11 PM


Re: Creation
Is atheism science? I think ID is science. If ID is not science it is a metascience.
You claim ID is not religion, but you counter ID with Atheism. Interesting. You do know that atheism and the TOE are not in any way related don't you. But that you counter ID with the opposite of religion shows what you really feel about ID.
I think Huntard did a great job replying to the other pints that could be made.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 392 by traderdrew, posted 08-12-2009 12:11 PM traderdrew has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 403 of 438 (519254)
08-12-2009 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by traderdrew
08-12-2009 12:51 PM


Re: Creation
There is physics and metaphysics and there is science and metascience. I got the term from Robin Collins.
You do realize that metaphysics isn't a branch of physics don't you. It is a branch of philosophy.
Metascience is just a made up ID word. D you kn \ow what they define metascience as? Try this, the unification of science and religion. Then you mention Robin Collins. But you continue to claim that you and ID have no religious component. All of your sources are religious. All of their arguments are religious. Robin Collins is a professor of philosophy at a religious college.
Here is a quote from a student on the college web page.
quote:
"No matter what class I’m taking, my professors always strive to apply what we’re learning to our spiritual walk."
More from that page.
quote:
Our professors are not only accomplished scholars but also practicing Christians who teach their areas of expertise and serve as role models for in integrating a life of faith with intellectual pursuits.
Collins teachers at a school that all employees and students must follow a covenant that says.
quote:
Students at Messiah College are required to sign a Community Covenant upon entering. The document states that every person is created in the image of God, and that there are certain responsibilities of living in community that must also be assumed in relation to God, others, and his creation.
First and foremost, the Community Covenant affirms belief in God and the Bible.
If you question whether professors must follow this, according to the college website.
quote:
At Messiah College, the Community Covenant, as found the student handbook and referenced in the employee manual, provides a biblical framework and context for our community life and “affirms that life draws meaning from submission to Christ and service to others.”
All of you ID sources are hyper religious, but you continue to claim that religion is not part of it.
Aren't you hunting for the truth?
Ahh here is the kicker. No scientists are not hunting for the "truth". They are going where the facts lead them. The pursuit of the truth seems to be a need of the religious. We will never know 100% about much, but science keeps discovering more and more.
Why does a creator have to use supernatural powers to create life?
If the creator is not supernatural,(I see you switched form designer to creator, is that telling or what) who created the creator. If it is not supernatural it most be aliens. Do you see where this is going? At some point you and the rest of the IDers must present some sort of EVIDENCE. As yet we ain't seen none.
Oh by the way this is an open forum. Anyone can respond to anyone's posts. I do not think Huntard stuck his nose anywhere and of you have a problem with it tough. I welcome his and others input. Maybe you should listen to some of them.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by traderdrew, posted 08-12-2009 12:51 PM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 413 by traderdrew, posted 08-13-2009 11:17 AM Theodoric has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 405 of 438 (519257)
08-12-2009 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 398 by Coyote
08-12-2009 1:47 PM


Re: Creation & ID
Your post #390 was almost entirely a criticism of "Darwinism" (whatever that is).
They truly believe that if they can show faults with TOE, then they have some how miraculously validated ID. They do not understand that even if TOE is proved wrong tomorrow, this does not make ID any more probable.
The whole idea of science eludes them, even the scientists in the bunch. I guess that is what happens when your thoughts are consumed with finding the "truth".

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 398 by Coyote, posted 08-12-2009 1:47 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by traderdrew, posted 08-13-2009 11:30 AM Theodoric has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 411 of 438 (519350)
08-13-2009 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 406 by traderdrew
08-13-2009 10:36 AM


Re: Creation & ID
I don't know anything about Dembski's course. I don't see anything in science in your cut and paste but it is obvious that those are superficial guidelines. So why would I say that his course doesn't have any science.
Gee, you might try following the link.
The course syllabi are linked to inside.
quote:
PHILO 4483 A; Christian Faith and Science
COURSE DESCRIPTION A study of the relationship between faith and science, with special
attention to issues relevant to Christian truth claims (e.g., the creation/evolution debate, the finetuning
of the universe for human life). Prerequisite: PHILO 4313 or 4373. Three hours.
COURSE GOALS This course will help students to reflect with theological accuracy,
philosophical precision, and cultural sensitivity on the relation between science and
Christian faith.
STUDENT LEARNING OUTCOMES In this course the student will:
Understand the main strategies for relating science and the Christian faith.
Be able to summarize the main scientific challenges to the Christian faith.
Learn to write critical reviews appropriate to the debate between science and religion.
quote:
Course Title: PHILO 7534; Christian Faith, Knowledge, and Science
COURSE DESCRIPTION An examination of the key approaches to epistemology, with special
reference to the knowledge of God. Modern scientific method and theory will be examined, with
attention to issues which impact the Christian faith (such as cosmology, creation, and miracles).
Four hours.
COURSE GOALS This seminar attempts to make sense of the scientific enterprise in light of
the Christian Faith. Of special interest here is the use to which science has been put in
undermining the Christian faith by furthering a materialistic worldview.
STUDENT LEARNING OUTCOMES In this course the student will:
Achieve proficiency in thinking, speaking, and writing effectively and professionally
within a Christian worldview on the role of science in relation to Christian faith.
Be able to summarize the main scientific challenges to the Christian faith.
Achieve a basic understanding of the history and philosophy of science.
Still no science. Guess that explains why they are PHILO courses.
Oh and on the heading for each course syllabus he has the lovely gem.
quote:
What you believe to be true will control you whether it’s true or not.
—Jeremy LaBorde
Facts be damned. All you need is faith. Lovely sentiment for a supposed science class.
Oh that would be Pastor Jeremy LaBorde.
Yup, ID is not religious at all. No sirree.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 406 by traderdrew, posted 08-13-2009 10:36 AM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by traderdrew, posted 08-13-2009 11:40 AM Theodoric has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 412 of 438 (519352)
08-13-2009 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 410 by traderdrew
08-13-2009 10:58 AM


Re: Creation "science" again
I have no disagreement there.
Then why do you throw out the scientific method and support ID over the TOE?
Unless you can show somewhere how ID has followed the scientific method.
Remember the scientific method does not start with a conclusion and look for evidence to support it.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 410 by traderdrew, posted 08-13-2009 10:58 AM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 418 by traderdrew, posted 08-13-2009 11:51 AM Theodoric has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 421 of 438 (519388)
08-13-2009 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by traderdrew
08-13-2009 12:20 PM


Re: Intelligent Design
That guy was obviously antichristian.
Why would this matter to a non christian? You keep on claiming no religious motivation, but you are the one that keeps bringing a religious bent to everything.
I haven't seen the video so I do not know whether it is antichristian as you say. Can you or Huntard point me to the particular post?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by traderdrew, posted 08-13-2009 12:20 PM traderdrew has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 422 by Huntard, posted 08-13-2009 1:23 PM Theodoric has not replied
 Message 426 by traderdrew, posted 08-15-2009 10:46 AM Theodoric has not replied

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