How can there be a creator without creation?

Hi tuffers,Welcome to EvC. Are you saying the Bible is wrong?ORAre you saying what you believe the Bible says is wrong?Because according to what you have written so far you don't have a clue as to what the Bible says.If God did not create the universe as stated in Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", Would you please inform me who, or what created the universe.Or is infinite?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi tuffers, There are people who claim God made the earth in 6 days.The Bible makes no such claim.The Bible does say man was formed from the dust of the earth. But that God breathed life into that form and it became a living soul. Gen 2:7.Science claims life began to exist...Well actually there is no theory of Abiogenesis. We don't know, we are working on it.The Bible does claim that a woman was made from the man's rib. Gen. 2:22. Well that is exactly what Genesis 1:1 says: Would you care to present evidence that proves that statement wrong? If there is proof please present it. Before you can draw that conclusion and get me to accept it you must first prove that the Bible account of creation is false.I challenge you to try to do so. Are you willing to apply the same restriction to the scientific method?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Dr, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. Gen 1:1At Genesis 1:2 the earth existed.From Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3 there is an account of a rearranging things preformed by God.So no Genesis does not say the earth was created in 6 days.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi tuffers,This is a debate board and you come on here preaching your sermon, in which you have made several claims. It is then your duty to present evidence to back up your claims.It is not my job to go to the library and confirm your beliefs.Your claim is that God is a fictrional character and did not create the universe.In Message 27 I asked 2 things.

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If God did not create the universe as stated in Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", Would you please inform me who, or what created the universe.

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Or is infinite?

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Either the universe is infinite or it began to exist.I believe God caused the universe to begin to exist.
Source of information Gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth".tuffers believes ___________caused the universe to begin to exist.In Message 32 I asked if you would care to present evidence that proves Gen 1:1 wrong.So far zero evidence has been presented to back up anything you have asserted.You made this statement in 'msg=25 In Message 32 I asked you to present that proof if it existed.
No evidence presented.In the same message I challenged you to prove the Bible account of creation is false. How does this: "How life started in the first place, I admit, is still unproven."Follow this: "Science has proven beyond all reasonable doubt that that is not how humans came into existence."It can not be proven that it did not happen the way the Bible says it happened until it is proven how it happened.So present your proof. Could you produce a little of that evidence to back up your many assertions. OKThen put forth your candidate for creator.
Don't say the BBT as it created nothing.If you would like to debate the Genesis account of creation I would be delighted to participate.If you would like to compare the Genesis account of creation and what is scientifically known about creation I would be delighted to participate.We could start by your answering my questions.1. Is the universe infinite?2. Did the universe begin to exist?3 Would you care to present evidence that Genesis 1:1 is wrong? yes/noIf you care to present evidence lets have it.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Theo, Do you mean to tell me all those science books and pappers I have been reading is not evidence of anything. Man I have wasted a lot of time. There is only verse in the Bible that addresses creation. That is Genesis 1:1.

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In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

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Anything else we read is man's explanation and understanding of how God created the heaven and the earth. Eventhough man was inspired to write that understanding. Scientifically there had to be one.In 1998 it was discovered that the universe is flying apart faster than ever.The expansion is speeding up.So going backward would produce no existence.Anything beyound none existence becomes pure speculation or religious.There is no hard evidence for any of the proposals that have been mentioned and no empirical correlation and testability. Such beliefs are without hard physical evidence and must therefore be considered unfalsifiable, currently outside the methodology of scientific investigation to confirm or disprove, and therefore more mathematically theoretical and metaphysical than scientific in nature. No I can not prove Gen 1:1 is true and correct.I invited, even challenged tuffers to try to prove Gen 1:1 wrong.All tuffers or you or anyone has to do to prove Gen 1:1 wrong is present the verifiable evidence for exactly what happened.Theo do you want to take a crack at presenting verifiable evidence that will put Gen 1:1 to rest?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Straggler, As many times as I have stated I believe the universe is infinite in an eternal now you have to ask me a question like the one above.I believe that existence "exists" That existence is responsible for the existence of everything. That existence is the God of Genesis 1:1.If you got a better explanation spit it out.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Theo, I know I can't prove the Bible is correct.Neither can you prove the scientific hypothesis is correct.If you can that will disprove what the Bible says.tuffer said science had proved the Bible wrong all I ask for was the evidence.He is the one making the claim it is up to him to back up his claims or yours if you want to take up his cause. Well I believe the universe is part of an eternal infinite existence so I don't have a problem with a beginning.Genesis 1:1 says in the beginning. I have yet for anyone to tell me when the beginning of eternity was.Now if expansion of the universe is true there had to be a beginning.Because if expansion had been happening for an infinity we would not be here.A couple of studies in the late 90's proved the universe's expansion is speeding up, which messes up a lot of things.So I will ask you the question.Is the universe infinite according to science?Did the universe have a beginning according to science?You have already seen me get in trouble discussing this point so I will give no references to scientist that say the universe had a beginning.You asked, "Do you know that much about the universe?"You could write what I know about the universe on the point of a ball point pen.But I can read and science tells me the universe had a beginning and will expand until it and everything in it dies.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi 2 No Genesis 1:1 is my belief that I can not prove.The claim is: Message 29 "What science has proven above all, is that the originators of the Genesis story had no valid evidence for their creation or their creator"I asked for the evidence.In Message 29 tuffers said:
"I think there is sufficient evidence now to establish beyond all reasonable doubt that the creation story of Genesis was made up,"I asked for the evidence.None has been forth coming from tuffers or any of the hand waving posters at EvC.The other part of your post is to far off topic for me to comment.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Straggler, It is kinda confusing isn't it.Is it any wonder that the people of 3500 years ago had a hard time expressing it.God is existence.Genesis 1:1 written by Moses says In the beginning. That would be the start of everything.Well God had no start as He is existence. So there was no beginning.So yes if there was a beginning then God created the heaven and earth then. Since there was no beginning then the universe is infinite. You trying to steal my thunder. I been saying for 2+ years the universe has always existed in some form.Problem is science demands that it have a beginning.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi tuffers, The biggest mistake I see is all the assertions you have made and not presented any scientific evidence to back up your assertions. I am more interested in your assertion.So would you please present the scientific evidence to back up your statement in:
Message 28

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What science has proven above all, is that the originators of the Genesis story had no valid evidence for their creation or their creator. So they must have made up the claim that God was a creator.

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Or you could continue to ignore my request for the evidence. Because none exists. You coming on here making a lot of assertions about my God and His creation claiming all kinds of scientific evidence againt God's creation is not debating.When you show up and start debating you will present your evidence to back up the assertions you have made. Unless I am a brain in a jar in an aliens labatory with all the information fed into my brain that I think is reality.The universe exists.Science says the universe did not always exist.If the universe began to exist it has a creator.So all those folks you talk about believing in a creator has physical evidence of the universe existing. They have science that tells them the universe had a beginning. They have a book that says in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. They have the ability to think, and choose what they want to believe.What more do they need?Now I believe God is existence and existence is responsible for everything. Existence could not have a beginning therefore there was no beginning and the universe has always existed in some form. It probably has been rearranged many times over the eternal now I talk about.Now that I have given you a reason why peole believe in a creator will you present your scientific, studies, tests, resulting in evidence that proves that, "the originators of the Genesis story had no valid evidence for their creation or their creator"God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi tuffer, If you did not want to discuss your assertions here why did you make the assertions here?
You are the one making the assertions if the train got off the track you threw the switch. I accept scientific facts.
I do not believe scientific hypothesis as fact. That takes a lot of faith.
I do not believe scientific theories as fact. That takes faith.
Just to recap your derailment of your thread.
You start of with the statement of fact as you believe it that "science has proven the creation story of the Bible to be fictional.I ask you for evidence to back up that assertion and you now tell me you would be glad to discuss the evidence just not in this thread.So I should just take my marbles and go play in another sandbox somewhere else. Message 1
Color added.You make that as a statement of fact with no qualifications. Message 6
Where and how did science prove God to be wrong? Message 10
color addedScience has no clue as to the original creation.Since science has no theory of the creation, what scientific evidence proves God to be false? Message 16
Theistic evolutionist believes that God used evolution to accomplish all that there is.YEC creationist are basically the ones who believe God created man from scratch a few thousand years ago. Message 22
List the fundamental things that are wrong? If you know that why did you make the statement in msg 16 above that you made.
Was it just because you could? Message 24So which point in the story is so fundamentally wrong?
You haven't pointed out one yet. Message 27
In Message 28 you responded that you didn't even own a copy of the Bible. Then you made several statements the Bible does not say or teach. Although some people teach it says what you said. Big difference.You then made the statement I have asked you for the scientific proof of several times. Which you now say you have no intention of discussing or presenting evidence for in this thread.
Then why did you bring it up in this thread? Oh I know just because you could.
You then concluded the creation story as fictional and thus God as fictional.You then made the statement: But there is evidence for a creation.
Unless the universe is infinite. Which is scientifically impossible. Had the universe been expanding for infinity we would not exist.
So either the universe is infinite or it began to exist.
If the universe began to exist it had a cause for it's existence.
Whether that cause was God or Hawking's instanton in imaginary time or some other exotic thing happening the universe had a creator.The proof is the universe exist. Message 29
Could you produce a little of that sufficient evidence. Message 30
You stated as a fact above that science had proved the creation story to be wrong. Now when confronted with the fact that nothing in science is ever proven you add reasonable doubt.Then you conclude that: I translate that to mean before that idiot ICANT asks me for evidence I can't produce. Message 38
Science has not proven how life began to exist yet. That comes first.Anything without that is just guesses as you put it.You make this claim and then tell me to go find the evidence to back up your claim.
It is your job to produce the evidence to support your claims. Not mine. Message 42
You again claim God must be fictional because the Genesis account is fictional. But you don't even know what the Genesis account of creation is. Message 56
Just for your information, religionist are the only ones who have an account of creation.Science is silent on that subject.There has been a lot of speculaion put forth by the imaginations of man.So what scientific evidence do you have access to that refutes the Genesis account you keep telling us is wrong or fictional.What proves it to be so beyond reasonable doubt. Message 62
If it was not your purpose, why did you do it so many times? Message 64The only person who will accept that the creation account given in Genesis is false is a person who is not a born again blood bought child of God.I believe the Genesis account of creation to be literal and scientifically correct.The Genesis account of creation and the ones spawned off of it are the only accounts of creation we will ever have.Science does not have one.For science to get an account of creation it needs to figure out how to get past a very dense hot something that was a trillion degrees kevin.Anything else will be a guess.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi tuffers,In the OP you state: This is talking about creation and a creator.It has absolutuly nothing to do with evolution.So how do you get to this: You abandoned your OP by the time we reached Message 28.So please explain where the transition from creation and the creator to evolution took place.That ain't moving the goalposts. That's moving to a different stadium.You need to settle creation, then the origin of life before you attack evolution.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi tuffers, Your OP seems pretty clear to me. Message 1
Color added.The creation story of the Bible is fictional. Pretty plain to me. Message 6
"Science....has proven God to be wrong". Pretty plain to me. Message 10
color added"Science has proven the original creation story." Pretty plain to me.You came to EvC claiming:Science had proved the Bible to be fiction.Science had proved God to be wrong.Science had proven the original creation story.I have asked for the scientific evidence that accomplishes these things. Nothing else.As evidence you have presented an absence of any.I did not ask you to prove evolution. RAZD would be a much better person to ask for information on evolution.I simply asked you to back up your assertions with the scientific evidence you claim exists to prove these things.You can not produce the evidence because it does not exist.So I can't blame you for not wanting to back up your assertions as you can't.Now to the question you didn't asked in the OP.How could people believe in the Creator God and still believe that the story in Genesis is wrong.They simply do not believe in the God of Genesis 1:1. They believe in their version of the God in Genesis 1:1.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Huntard, OK you be the English teacher.Here is the entire quote. Message 10
color addedStatement of fact. "Science has proven the original creation storyConclusion, desiginated by therefore meaning because of that,
"the creator in that story, God, to be false."
Result of that conclusion, "If there is a real creator, it is not God."My interpertation.Science has proven the original story of creation
(I entertained the thought for a moment that He was saying science had proven the original Bible story of creation but dismissed that idea as he comes over as an atheist.)The God of the Bible creation story is falseIf there is a creator it was not God.Now please point out where I messed up and did not understand what tuffers said.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi tuffers, I would be happy if you would discuss your assertions.Assertion #1 found in OP.

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Message 1 science has proven the creation story of the Bible to be fictional.

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tuffers writes:

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Many people today who accept that science has proven the creation story of the Bible to be fictional, somehow still believe in the creator from that story.

Color added.

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For science to prove the creation story in the Bible to be fictional they would have to produce the original facts of creation.Which you did assert in: Message 10
color addedWhere is the scientific evidence? Well I asked you to present your evidence to back up your bare assertion you made in: Message 6
I am going to assume you mean science has proven that God does not exist within a probability of 99.99% not 100%.You cited evolution as your proof.First of all evolution does not have anything to do with creation.Second evolution does not have anything to do with the origin of life.Those have to exist before evolution can occur. Therefore evolution can not disprove the creator. Nor can it disprove that life was created by the creator.Is the universe infinite? yes/noScience says the universe can not be infinite because it is expanding.That would mean the universe had to begin to exist.If the universe began to exist it has a cause for its existence.The position that you claim science has proven false and therefore God non existent.The Bible says in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."Science says in the beginning......you complete with your evidence.The Bible says in Genesis 2:7 "And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."Science says life began......you complete with your evidence.I have been told here that:Science says in the beginning "we don't know".Science says concerning the origin of life, "we don't know".Now if science don't know how the universe was created, how can you say it has proven the Bible creation story false?Now if science don't know how life came to be, how can you say science proves the Bible story to be wrong.Evolution proves only that some things change over time.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."