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Author Topic:   Evolving New Information
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 151 of 458 (519480)
08-14-2009 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by greyseal
08-14-2009 2:45 AM


What is information?
greyseal writes:

somebody who sincerely believes what they say and holds this viewpoint, what exactly do you mean by "an increase in information"?

What do you mean by "information" greyseal?

Let me give you my interpretation of information and I wont touch on Percy's mistakes.
You were able to express you thoughts through your message to us. You rely on "our" sophisticated technology as a medium. No one can deny that this technology is the work of the human mind(s). Yet you are able to ascribe a infinitely more sophisticated system to chance. That's just not logical.
For more information, please read the book entitled "Reason" by a chimpanzee called Info.

Edited by LucyTheApe, : Further information


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by greyseal, posted 08-14-2009 2:45 AM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by greyseal, posted 08-14-2009 6:38 AM LucyTheApe has responded
 Message 154 by Percy, posted 08-14-2009 7:49 AM LucyTheApe has responded

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 1939 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 152 of 458 (519489)
08-14-2009 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by LucyTheApe
08-14-2009 4:24 AM


Re: What is information?
No, that's not what I meant, and I think you and every other IDiot who spouts that question knows it.

IDiots say (and I quote from http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/LifeSciences18.html")

Life contains matter, energy, and information. All isolated systems, including living organisms, have specific, but perishable, amounts of information. No isolated system has ever been shown to increase its information content significantly. Nor do natural processes increase information; they destroy it. Only outside intelligence can significantly increase the information content of an otherwise isolated system.

but, and this is the kicker, they don't seem to be able to sufficiently explain what they mean by "information".

This is best displayed by your wilful ignorance of my question and by other IDiots telling us that Percy's example doesn't count for...some reason to do with <coughcoughmumblemumble>.

So, set some goal posts. I know what I mean by information - Percy's example way back on page 1 is an example of it. Is it what you mean or not?

If not, what do you mean? You must know.

If you can't answer, please don't bother telling me to read my sources, because you haven't supplied any.

Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-14-2009 4:24 AM LucyTheApe has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by greyseal, posted 08-14-2009 7:11 AM greyseal has not yet responded
 Message 157 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-15-2009 12:00 AM greyseal has responded

    
greyseal
Member (Idle past 1939 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 153 of 458 (519492)
08-14-2009 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by greyseal
08-14-2009 6:38 AM


Re: What is information?
and, before you tell me to look at http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/ReferencesandNotes16.html which was another link, I already did, and...well - the title says "compelling evidence".

Let's break it down (and I appologize for linkspam, but I'll not cut and paste the entire entry - feel free to open a tab with my responses to each entry, and that link itself)

a: and?

b: and?

b+: ooh, a "successful choice" - are you sure that's not a quote mine, taken out of context?

c: "how was it programmed" ? if that's not begging the question, it's still "god of the gaps". weak and pointless

c+: god of the gaps.

d: it's long, but..irrelevant. we go from "how do we measure information" without answering, to a uselessly oversimplified example, to a useless mash of "dna is this" and a smattering of information theory, to a baseless unproven assumption to the kicker which is "there's a lot of information, we haven't explained what it is...and mutations kill you"

d+: probably a quote mine, it's almost certainly taken out of context and not of any use

d++: ooh, a scientist! and, er, yay, humans are complex and deal with a lot of information. and?

e: quote mined, apparently IDiot biased statement which ultimately says "god of the gaps"

f: tautology based on a still-undefined measurement called "information"

f+: uh, god of the gaps. again. if we could demonstrate it (and who knows, we may have, I am not a scientist), we'd have created life.

g: uh, yeah...our universe hasn't succumbed to heat-death. we know, your point?

h: and finally, the big bang...these IDiots know that much about creating universes with big bangs? (yes, I said that with a straight face)

so, much of a muchness about information - but no definitions or useful ways of measuring it...just shrill yellings that it's not possible because we don't have the answers - you do know that the scientific community are sniggering under their collective breath the word "yet"? right?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by greyseal, posted 08-14-2009 6:38 AM greyseal has not yet responded

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18309
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 154 of 458 (519494)
08-14-2009 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by LucyTheApe
08-14-2009 4:24 AM


Re: What is information?
LucyTheApe writes:

Let me give you my interpretation of information and I wont touch on Percy's mistakes.

There are no mistakes. The organism was hypothetical, its genes were hypothetical, its alleles were hypothetical, the codons were hypothetical, and the amino acids they code for were hypothetical. The example was an illustration of how information increases in a population's genome, not of how DNA codes for proteins.

I could change the example slightly so that the codons are real, but everything else can only be hypothetical. To take the example any further into the real world would take away the simplicity that makes it an easily grasped example of how information increases in a population's genome. Anyway, here's the example again, this time with codons that represent different amino acids:

These are the alleles of the original gene:

  • GGAAGC (green eyes)
  • GGAAGA (blue eyes)
  • GGCACG (yellow eyes)

These are the alleles after the mutation produces a new allele:

  • GGAAGC (green eyes)
  • GGAAGA (blue eyes)
  • GGCACG (yellow eyes)
  • GGCAAG (brown eyes)

The number of alleles was 3, which can be represented in log23 = 1.585 bits, and then it increased to 4, which is log24 = 2 bits, and that's an increase in information of .415 bits.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-14-2009 4:24 AM LucyTheApe has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by sfs, posted 08-14-2009 8:42 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply
 Message 156 by Wounded King, posted 08-14-2009 8:44 AM Percy has responded
 Message 158 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-15-2009 12:06 AM Percy has responded

    
sfs
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 464
From: Cambridge, MA USA
Joined: 08-27-2003


Message 155 of 458 (519497)
08-14-2009 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Percy
08-14-2009 7:49 AM


Re: What is information?
Percy writes:

There are no mistakes. The organism was hypothetical, its genes were hypothetical, its alleles were hypothetical, the codons were hypothetical, and the amino acids they code for were hypothetical.


Your original post never even said that the alleles were in coding sequence, or that if it was coding sequence the bases were shown in frame. There was no mistake to touch on.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Percy, posted 08-14-2009 7:49 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

    
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2172 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 156 of 458 (519498)
08-14-2009 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Percy
08-14-2009 7:49 AM


Re: What is information?
Hi Percy,

Is it the case that what that 'information' measurement you are discussing represents is the average information we would be obtaining were we to sample a population. Therefore the more alleles are possible the less likely any particular allele is and therefore the more information we gain on finding any particular allele?

But isn't this also altered by the allele frequency?

Is your Log23=1.58 bits really 1.58 bits = -0.33 Log2(0.33) -0.33 Log2(0.33) -0.33 Log2(0.33).

So if we are talking about the de novo arrival of the new allele lets take a population of 100 and say there is 1 member with the new allele. This give us Shannon entropy =-0.33 Log2(0.33) -0.33 Log2(0.33) -0.33 Log2(0.33) -0.01 Log2(0.01) = 1.65 bits.

Am I using the wrong measurement or just measuring something completely different?

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Percy, posted 08-14-2009 7:49 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Percy, posted 08-15-2009 8:13 AM Wounded King has not yet responded

    
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 157 of 458 (519571)
08-15-2009 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by greyseal
08-14-2009 6:38 AM


Re: What is information?
greyseal writes:

So, set some goal posts. I know what I mean by information - Percy's example way back on page 1 is an example of it. Is it what you mean or not?

That's a good idea greyseal and pertinent. But first we must agree that information exist outside of matter. Do you agree?

Percy's numeric interpretation is not relevant here, it's a quantitative measure(Shannon). Shannon never dealt with the question of "what is information". I've tried, every time I jump on this site to go back through and try and understand how Percy introduced new information but I end up quitting.

I could be wrong but my interpretation of Percy's point is this: Given three sets of base pairs you can have a mutation to produce a fourth base pair and hence new information(different eye colour). That's crap. Those genes are there specifically to provide input into the eye colour machine. If you get dud parts (bad parameters) the machine wont work. It's exactly what Shannon considered noise. Noise degrades information exactly as 2ndLaw degrades the universe.


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by greyseal, posted 08-14-2009 6:38 AM greyseal has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by pandion, posted 08-15-2009 12:54 AM LucyTheApe has responded
 Message 160 by Coyote, posted 08-15-2009 1:16 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded
 Message 163 by greyseal, posted 08-15-2009 6:53 AM LucyTheApe has responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 158 of 458 (519572)
08-15-2009 12:06 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Percy
08-14-2009 7:49 AM


Re: What is information?
Percy writes:

These are the alleles after the mutation produces a new allele:

* GGAAGC (green eyes)
* GGAAGA (blue eyes)
* GGCACG (yellow eyes)
* GGCAAG (brown eyes)

The number of alleles was 3, which can be represented in log23 = 1.585 bits, and then it increased to 4, which is log24 = 2 bits, and that's an increase in information of .415 bits.

You see the mistake your making here Percy. You assume that noise increases information. This exposes your lack of understanding. What you are saying here is that information is as matter. It's not.


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Percy, posted 08-14-2009 7:49 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Percy, posted 08-15-2009 8:26 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

  
pandion
Member (Idle past 1078 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 159 of 458 (519575)
08-15-2009 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by LucyTheApe
08-15-2009 12:00 AM


Re: What is information?
LucyTheApe writes:

If you get dud parts (bad parameters) the machine wont work. It's exactly what Shannon considered noise. Noise degrades information exactly as 2ndLaw degrades the universe.


But, Shannon was concerned with communication, not genetics. Shannon began with the message, encoded it, transmitted it through a medium, received it and decoded it. For Shannon, any change in the message caused by noise was a decrease in information. Thus the oft repeated claim that it is impossible to increase information. For Shannon and communications, that may be true. Correct me if I'm wrong there, but it's been a lot of years since I studied this stuff.

Genetic information doesn't work that way. Genetic information is not Shannon information, but an extension of communication theory. In genetics, information is defined as the number of bits required to represent the message. The message is the genome of a population. Thus, a mutation that creates a sequence in a genome that did not previously exist requires additional bits to represent. Thus, there has been an increase in information. If, as you want to claim, the new information causes a malfunction, then that may be eliminated from the genome. However, since none of this fits Shannon's definition of noise, then neutral or beneficial mutations can certainly add information.

Noise degrades information exactly as 2ndLaw degrades the universe.

Shannon noise degrades Shannon information. Please try to distinguish between communications and genetics.

What a strange view of things you have. Have you ever actually studied thermo?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-15-2009 12:00 AM LucyTheApe has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-15-2009 5:55 AM pandion has not yet responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 184 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 160 of 458 (519577)
08-15-2009 1:16 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by LucyTheApe
08-15-2009 12:00 AM


Re: What is information?
Noise degrades information exactly as 2ndLaw degrades the universe.

Are you basing your opinion/worldview of both entropy and "no new information" on the mythical "Fall?"


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-15-2009 12:00 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

  
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 161 of 458 (519578)
08-15-2009 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by pandion
08-15-2009 12:54 AM


Re: What is information?
pandion writes:

But, Shannon was concerned with communication, not genetics. Shannon began with the message, encoded it, transmitted it through a medium, received it and decoded it. For Shannon, any change in the message caused by noise was a decrease in information. Thus the oft repeated claim that it is impossible to increase information.

Yes! That's what I'm saying.
Information is information, doesn't matter what medium you use or for what purpose.

private void swap ( object a, object b){
temp = new object;
temp = b;
b = a;
a = temp;}

A snippet of information, show me how you can mutate this code and introduce new information, piecewise!

Genetic information doesn't work that way.

No? Why is it that evolution doesn't comply with the natural laws but instead has a set of laws all of its own. Laws that can't be demonstrated in the natural world we live in?

What a strange view of things you have. Have you ever actually studied thermo?

I'm sure everyone who has studied science has been introduced to the laws. Mentioning ^&*(&%% of thermodynamics on a evolutionism site is like turning the light on cockroaches; they scatter.

Coyote writes:

Are you basing your opinion/worldview of both entropy and "no new information" on the mythical "Fall?"

Its not an opinion, were talking exact science. My opinions or world view don't count neither do yours.

Edited by LucyTheApe, : No reason given.

Edited by LucyTheApe, : No reason given.


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by pandion, posted 08-15-2009 12:54 AM pandion has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by greyseal, posted 08-15-2009 6:37 AM LucyTheApe has responded
 Message 173 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-24-2009 5:01 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 1939 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 162 of 458 (519579)
08-15-2009 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by LucyTheApe
08-15-2009 5:55 AM


Re: What is information?
Lucy oh Lucy - you didn't answer the question. You ignored it entirely. You sidelined it by saying that Percy's example (4 allelles instead of 3) wasn't an increase in information...

That's not how genetics works.

Genetics isn't a message that can be corrupted like static on a radio frequency (which is what Shannon's work is about). It changes, but not in the way you think it does. It's not all or nothing, it's chinese whispers.

If you're listening to the TV and you should hear "my name is Earl" but instead you here "my kzzt is brrzzzt" then you've lost information if you need to know who's what is what. This, as I said, isn't a good analogy for genetics.

If instead, you are baking a cake and you should get "add three eggs and fold in one cup of sugar" but instead you hear "add two eggs and fold in two cup of sugar" then you've not lost information, you've gained a new allelle, which is an increase.

You've still made a cake...it's going to taste different, with a different texture, but it's still a cake.

Now, a point mutation of light moths to dark - this is a direct real-world example of this sort of information increase...

of course the kicker is, as before, that for all your bluster you have still not defined what information means in your context.

We don't know what you mean - it's becoming the opinion of many that you don't know what you mean, therefore your objections to Percy's example are useless.

From my (admittedly short) attempt to investigate, the proponents of this buzzword-laden idea don't know what they mean, either.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-15-2009 5:55 AM LucyTheApe has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-15-2009 7:22 AM greyseal has not yet responded

    
greyseal
Member (Idle past 1939 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 163 of 458 (519580)
08-15-2009 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by LucyTheApe
08-15-2009 12:00 AM


Re: What is information?
lucytheape writes:

greyseal writes:

So, set some goal posts. I know what I mean by information - Percy's example way back on page 1 is an example of it. Is it what you mean or not?

That's a good idea greyseal and pertinent. But first we must agree that information exist outside of matter. Do you agree?

Information exists outside of matter?

I'm really not sure what you mean - it's not a tangible thing, no, but without getting philosophical, it's an intangible quantity.

Let me try this - we can transmit information with photons, the most intangible form of information that I know about save for bosons...but all of this is matter.

If you want to know whether we can have and transmit information without space/time, you'll have to ask somebody with far more knowledge than I.

If that's not what you meant, well, explain.

lucytheape writes:

Percy's numeric interpretation is not relevant here, it's a quantitative measure(Shannon).

it's only not relevant if you can prove it's not relevant - as I said before, you have never answered about what you mean by information.

lucytheape writes:

Shannon never dealt with the question of "what is information". I've tried, every time I jump on this site to go back through and try and understand how Percy introduced new information but I end up quitting.

could it be...that Shannon's idea of information is not relevant to genetics?

lucytheape writes:

I could be wrong but my interpretation of Percy's point is this: Given three sets of base pairs you can have a mutation to produce a fourth base pair and hence new information(different eye colour). That's crap. Those genes are there specifically to provide input into the eye colour machine. If you get dud parts (bad parameters) the machine wont work. It's exactly what Shannon considered noise. Noise degrades information exactly as 2ndLaw degrades the universe.

so tell me this - how come the point mutation for the peppered moth have occured then? This is directly, exactly, what Percy was talking about, only rather than affecting just the eyes, the whole darn moth changed colour.

I wont say "check mate" yet, but - your king is in check. Your move. No castling (avoiding the answer).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-15-2009 12:00 AM LucyTheApe has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-15-2009 8:07 AM greyseal has responded

    
LucyTheApe
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 458 (519582)
08-15-2009 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by greyseal
08-15-2009 6:37 AM


Re: What is information?
greyseal writes:

of course the kicker is, as before, that for all your bluster you have still not defined what information means in your context.

My definition, in its most basic form, information is an encoded message.

"It's a lovely day in outback Australia, again today"
" It' da encantador del S.A. en el interior Australia, otra vez today"

Same message, different encoding.

"It's a lovely 243523asdsdf asdfasdf day in outback Australia, again today"

According to Percy, I've just added information to my original message. Do you think I have?


There no doubt exist natural laws, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.

blɛz paskal


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by greyseal, posted 08-15-2009 6:37 AM greyseal has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Huntard, posted 08-15-2009 7:45 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded
 Message 289 by traderdrew, posted 09-04-2009 12:24 PM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 373 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 165 of 458 (519583)
08-15-2009 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by LucyTheApe
08-15-2009 7:22 AM


Re: What is information?
LucyTheApe writes:

"It's a lovely 243523asdsdf asdfasdf day in outback Australia, again today"

According to Percy, I've just added information to my original message. Do you think I have?


Yes. It's nonsensical, but it IS more information.

Edited by Huntard, : changed it a bit


I hunt for the truth
This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by LucyTheApe, posted 08-15-2009 7:22 AM LucyTheApe has not yet responded

    
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