Why Belief?

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The very fact that I cannot do anything right & the change in
friends who accepted the LORD & a noted difference between
Christians and those of other faiths or of no faith.

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Funny, part of the reason I stopped believing was because I didn't like how all the Christians I knew treated other people and each other so poorly.Mostly, I became much happier and less judgemental of myself and others when I stopped being a believer.

Even as a little kid, long before I read Gloria Steinem , I felt it was just unfair and nonsensical for there to only be male priests in the Catholic Church.What was wrong with women? How come they weren't good enough to have the important jobs? I wanted to be one of those kids that got to help out the priest and the deacon with the ceremony, but of course there were only altar boys, never altar girls!This message has been edited by AdminPhat, 04-16-2005 02:42 AM

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I am going to read into this, I am sorry if I am wrong.

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You are partially wrong and partially right.

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Since the bible tells us that God writes his laws in the hearts of everyone since Jesus, the place you were at when you were a believer, you knew it was wrong, and it wasn't God.

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I don't know if I thought it "wasn't God".I just knew I didn't feel any kind of connection the way other people said they did.

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You probably felt pressure, and were possibly being taught wrong.

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I certainly was pressured by my mother to go to Mass every sunday, and to Catechism every week until I was 18. I was smart enough to not even bring up the subject of not going because I knew it wasn't an option. I certainly didn't see the point in the catechism and would have stopped if given the choice, but I had a fear of God's retribution for the sin of not going to Mass every Sunday.Once I got to college, I went to the local Catholic church exactly twice. I might have kept attending, but the priest had a very heavy accent and I couldn't understand a thing he said. Didn't seem to be much point to attending, so I stopped going altogether.I still had some vague idea that I was sinning and bad things would start happening to me. Of course, nothing bad happened at all.

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You knew this in your heart, and since you were/currently looking for God, you could not find him. All you saw was a bunch of BS.

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I was searching and wondering about the spiritual in my late teens and early twenties. Certainly the Catholic Church seemed more and more BS-filled as I thought about it more, and was away from it. Then I began to question all religious thought and all belief in the supernatural. My rational mind, which had always been fairly strong, started to strengthen. I also began to come to terms with and heal from my abused childhood. It's funny that my loss of faith and recovery from past emotional abuse came about at the same time, and it was the realization that there was probably no God or Spirit to help me that gave me the strength to move on in my life.I was all there is, most likely, so I figured I'd better make the choice to take responsibility for my life and make it what I wanted it to be.So I did.And still do.

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Please clarify if I am wrong. I only sense this, because I kind of went throught the same thing. I am not judging you, but sense a purity of heart from you, a genuine person, even though we debate a lot.

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And I sense the same from you, Rat.

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I think you see more God in animals, than people, and it is when you spend your time with the animals, that you are talking to God.

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Well, sure, if you'd like to believe this, I have no problem. It is a lovely thought, and thank you for sharing it.I of course don't know if I'm talking to God or not, but I do get a great deal of pleasure out of "communing" with animals. Trying to understand them and their ways of communicating their thoughts is endlessly fascinating to me.

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Do you ask for forgiveness? Even if you feel like you do nothing wrong?

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Well, no, I don't ask for forgiveness if I've done nothing wrong.

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Do you forgive the people that abused you as a child?

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Oh, yes, I forgave my parents years ago. I do not excuse how they treated me, and I am not close to them now because they have never owned up to their abuse. Part of the process of coming to terms with my childhood abuse is realizing that my parents are human, and have their own pain and limitations and that's why they weren't good parents to me. On an emotional maturity scale, both of them are pretty childlike and cowardly in many ways. As long as I have known them, they have always chosen to wrap themselves in loneliness and fear and depression and bitterness and self-hatred. I have a lot of pity for the tiny, limited, stunted emotional lives they lead.I am really proud of the place I have come to in my life. It was a LOT of work. I know I will always have to work against the self-doubt and feelings of inadequacy that my mother and father gave me, but my self-work gave me the feeling that every day of my life is full of possibility. That's something that my parents will probably never know, sadly.

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I am sorry for your pain.

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Thank you, it's sweet of you to say so.

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I wonder if you ask yourself, why was I brought into this life, and have to go through what I went through?

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Well, asking the quastion assumes that there actually is an answer to the question; that there actually is a reason.I don't know if there is a reason or not.I don't think there is any way to know the answer to that question.

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Why was I brought into existance? What is my purpose? Why do I even ask myself these questions?

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Well, we ask those questions because we have really big, complex brains that allow us to have complex, abstract thought and self-awareness, i.e. consciousness.As for my purpose? I decide what it is. We all do.Anyway, thank you very much for your kind and encouraging words. It sounds like you can relate, so I also know how hard you have worked and still strive to be the sort of person that you want to be.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 04-25-2005 01:31 PM

Are you kidding?I own a leather bound copy of the first four Douglas Adams books in the Hitchiker's Guide series.I also very much liked Dirk Gentley's Holistic Detective Agency. Have you read that one?Anyway, are you planning to see the film of THGTTG?Opening night is this Friday, and I may have to be a big geek and go.I have a second reason to see it sooner rather than later...I am a huge Joss Whedon fan (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel) and particularly of his very short-lived series called Firefly. The series was fantastic and IMHO would have been just as great, if not better, than both Buffy and Angel, but the idiots at Fox Televidion just didn't get it.Well, Whedon got funding to turn the Firefly concept into a full length feature film called Serenity which is due to be released this September, and there is a trailer playing for it before THGTTG.I'm all a-tingle!{OK people - OFF-TOPIC! Stop it right here, right now. - Adminnemooseus}This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 04-25-2005 08:06 PM

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I have never read a fiction about a man who was so perfectly righteous and worthy of praise than Jesus.

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The Buddah was a pretty nice guy.

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So why am I not a Buddhist?

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Because you weren't raised in a predominantly Buddhist country, mainly.It's really that simple.

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1) There are lots of nice guys in the world; no perfect ones.

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That's right. There's no such thing as "perfect" at all, really.

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2) Buddah never claimed to be God, nor did he say if there was a god.

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Yes. The power to be blessed is within each of us, not an outside entity.

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3) Jesus performed miracles (a few of my close friends would testify that he still does); Buddah didn't.

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Unsupported claim.

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4) While much of Buddah's teaching is wisdom, it does not carry the same message of the Gospel. (not that this means his message is false, just that it doesn't seem complete to me)

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Huh, how so? What more do you need to know to live a good life than the Eightfold Path?

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I couldnt disagree more. I personally became a Christian while my family and I would say 80% of my friends at the time were not. To say the majority believe in God for that reason is a far stretch.

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Were you raised in the US?In Texas?Then you became a Christian because that is the dominant religion in your culture, by far.

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It is for those that never have a choice. But I have a choice.

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Fair enough. However, if you never stopped being a Christian, didn't you just become a less dfundamentalist Christian rather than really having no inclination at all?Did you really investigate Buddhism from the viewpoint that it was actually just as valid as Christianity?I rather doubt it.

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You don't know this. This is a belief, and it is a belief that strips the meaning from everything in life.

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I've never seen anything that is perfect, so why should I accept that "perfect" exists?Also, it does not logically follow that if "perfect" doesn't exist that all meaning is stripped from life. I find that an absurd statement.I think your engineer brain is getting in your way again. There is not an answer to every question, dawg. Why do you think there has to be?I swear, you have the most discomfort with uncertainty of anyone I have ever met.

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How can one have the power to bless one's self, if one does not have the power to give one's self the greatest blessing of all: life? No man is an island. Can a man who lives alone his whole life, bless himself? I think we can bless each other, but we cannot do it on our own.

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Let me be clearer. What I meant was that we do not need a deity to bestow blessings upon us, that we are whole and complete as we are.

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I believe the weakness of righteousness is stronger than the strength of physical evidence. I value the intangible things more than the tangible.

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See, here I don't really believe you.No matter how "rightous" someone is, they are just as fallible and mortal and subject to the laws of physics as the rest of humanity. You can say you value the "intangible" but when it comes right down to it, you probably spend the bulk of your time thinking about and working for the tangible things in life.

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What is the thing that many people fear as much or more than death? Being alone and unloved. The eightfold path does not mention love.

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The Eightfold Path is love in action, dawg. Living the Eightfold Path is to show love and compassion for all living things.Are you sure you really investigated Buddhism?

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What is the biggest question on many people's minds? What is the meaning of life? I see no meaning in the eightfold path.

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Why do you think that you are entitled to know the answer to that question?Just because you have difficulty with ambiguity doesn't mean the universe is obligated to indulge your discomfort.

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The first of the "Four Noble Truths" is that Life means suffering. Is that all we're living for? To suffer and die?

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Now I am sure you never really studied Buddhism."Suffering" in Buddhism means "desire" or the wish to control things.Once we stop trying to control things (particularly other people), we let go of much of our dissatisfaction and discontent with life.

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Should I tell Dr. Ortiz who just lost his beautiful daughter, Nancy, of 18 years that he is only suffering because he desires to have his daughter back, and that to end the suffering he must end desire? I do not see Buddha's wisdom as being complete.

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You don't understand.Of course, a Buddhist philosophy does recognize that he is suffering because he desires to have his daughter back, but it also is much more honest and less fearful about death, considering it a normal part of life instead of something to be avoided, ignored, and feared. Buddhism accepts that we will feel grief and loss and pain, and we are to have compassion for ourselves and others when experiencing them.

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Are you a Buddhist, Schraff? Or are you merely presenting a rhetorical argument?

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No, not a Buddhist, although Buddhism is probably the only religion I could even come close to embracing. I think the Eightfold Path is a fine way to live; much more focused upon improving oneself instead of arrogantly trying to "save" everyone else, and it seems to also just make a lot of sense. However, the whole "we should work towards detachment and reduce our desire" thing seems too against human nature to really be completely healthy.

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Actually, No. My definition of belief is as an absolute. For me to think otherwise is something that I toy with, but I can not elevate my own intellectual judgement above my belief, as you have done.

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As an Agnostic, I enjoy complete freedom to actually investigate all religions and worldviews equally without any existing religious filters.

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You can speak of humanity as being subject to the laws of physics yet the stumbling block in your mind refuses to acknowledge that humanity is subject to the laws of god.

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What makes you think you know what the laws of god are?I know what the laws of physics are, and anyone can learn and observe them.Clearly, the physical laws are much, much more universal that any human perception of god's law. For that matter, how do you know the laws of physics aren't the laws of god?Also, which god?

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To be correct, what you should say is that YOU do not need a deity to bestow blessings upon YOURSELF.

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What's stopping you from bestowing blessings upon yourself and others?

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And why do you believe that your logic is enlightened and absolute enough to tell others that they do not need a deity in their life?

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First of all, I never said they didn't need a deity in their life, and I never said I thought my logic was enlightened, nor absolute.Second, I believe it was you who just said this to me:

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the stumbling block in your mind refuses to acknowledge that humanity is subject to the laws of god.

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So maybe you should be asking yourself the question you just asked me, eh?Anyway, one objection to Buddhism that dawg had was that it didn't anwer the "meaning of life" question, and I simply asked the question above, "Why do you think that you are entitled to know the answer to the meaning of life"?I think it is a good question.

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It is obligated to indulge his disconfort if it is responsible for making him, as you claim, lil miss naturalist.

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No, not really.

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Since his ego exists, and he thinks therefore he is a persona, these questions become weighty.

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You are under the mistaken impression, perhaps, that the universe is sentient or something?His "weighty thoughts" are simply a consequence of a big, complex brain capable of abstract thought, especially extrapolation into the future, and consciousness.Our evolution also gave us the consequence of being mostly hairless. Does that mean the universe is "obligated" to always provide us with the means to clothe and warm ourselves?Hardly. The universe owes us nothing.

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Can he just be a product of random reduction pertaining to kulling traits?

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I don't even know what this means.

Crap. I think I know what happened.I must have hit the "edit" button instead of "reply" and since I am an admin...Anyway, I'm so sorry about that! Now that it's happened I will be more aware and be much more careful. I didn't realize that clicking on the edit button would automatically pop us into admin mode.I have nothing to argue with you about in your post, dawg.(It's a first, I know. )I really do see a change in you, BTW. Much less strident, much more...relaxed.

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Schraff---I am about to find out where the rubber meets the road in regard to my beliefs. I have type 2 diabetes...have had it for several years, actually. My lifestyle has been steadily declining. I know what I should eat and how I should live, but I have been oddly undisciplined and defiant at discipling myself to make any changes.

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Yes..I have prayed about it...but I am to a point of despair. I am at a point where not changing means bad consequences. And yet I cannot pull away from the cliff edge!

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In my mind, prayer...and God...are all that can rescue me. I am unimpressed with psychologists. What would you do?

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Gosh, I am sorry to hear that.What can I tell you?Well, if it was me I would realize that the only person who has the power to change my behavior is me.Likewise, I try to be as compassionate, understanding and loving to myself as I would be to my best friend, but I would also be honest with myself like I would be with my best friend if I thought they were engaging in some self-destructive behaviors.Perhaps try to find a support group. Often the people who help the most are the people who are going through it themselves, and you all can support and encourage each other to make the proper changes in your life.Just ask yourself; is your rebellion at making the changes you need worth it when your life is on the line? What would you say to a friend or loved one if you saw them doing what you are doing.Doesn't your book say "God helps those who help themselves?" I am not saying that to be a jerk, but to maybe give you some incentive to make the changes you need to.You'll be in my thoughts, Phat. Be well. e-mail me if you'd like.

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When I grew up I never heard one think about Jesus or Christians.

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Did you grow up in the Middle East or India or something?

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Our culture is as far away from Christianity as we can get.

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What holidays did you celebrate and get vacations from school during?

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Ever turn on the tv or listen to music.

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Sure.Ever open the phone book in any town in the US and count how many christian churces there are. In the medium/small town I live in there are a couple of hundred.There isn't a single Hindu Temple and only a few mosques and Jewish temples.How many Hindu temples or Mosques were in your home town?

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I become a Christian because I always doubted people saying Jesus wasnt the Son of God having never gone to Church.

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So, you never touched a bible, nor knew any of Christianities basic beliefs nor tenets before you decided to believe all of it?Had you ever heard of the Virgin Birth, the Trinity, the Flood, the Three Wise men, the story of Job, Moses, the Plagues, Jesus' Crucifiction and rising on the third day, etc....Nwever heard of any of that AT ALL before converting?

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As I said earlier none of my family or friends did either. So to say oh you become a Christian because that is the dominint religion is a far cry from the truth.

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Did you get vacation from school for Ramadan? How about for Sarasvati Puja or Siddhartha Buddha Day?How many Buddhist meditation centers do you have in your town? Shinto shrines?