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Author Topic:   Different forms of dishonesty
Taz
Member (Idle past 1370 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 1 of 4 (520306)
08-20-2009 4:47 PM


There are many ways a person can be dishonest. In fact, there are so many ways that it is sometimes hard to pin down when a person is being dishonest. I'm going to attempt to categorize the various forms of dishonesty that I can think of. Feel free to add to my list.

Outright lie

Let's start with the most obvious. Suppose I tell you I'm actually a rock star that earns 7 figures each year. That's an outright lie. Unlike other forms of dishonesty listed later on in this post, this form of dishonesty is quite easy to pin down. All you have to do is call me out on it.

Subtle lie

Like an outright lie, a subtle lie can be more difficult to pin down. This form of dishonesty is usually presented where a lie is sandwiched between truths. An example would be I'm a passionate well-known musician who has performed at various places, including weddings. It's true that I can be passionate about the music that I play and I only play as a hobby. I've performed at cafes, bars, and weddings. I am, however, not at all well known. Most of my friends don't even know I play music as a hobby.

Exaggerated truth

Now, we begin to emerge into the not-so-easy-to-pin-down lies. An exaggerated truth is the truth that is doctored to sound like something else. Stories of the supernatural and mysteries are littered with exaggerated truths. Certain details are omitted while insignificant ones are exaggerated and emphasized.

One time, I woke up in the middle of the night and noticed that I was paralyzed. I wanted to scream for help, but I couldn't. The next thing I noticed was my chest was heavy and it was hard for me to breathe. This was when my eyes were focused and I was able to see the ghostly figure that was on top of me. At this point, you could imagine that I was absolutely terrified. I'd heard of stories where the dead had come back to haunt the living, and I was living one of these stories! For the next 30 minutes or so, I mentally wrestled with the ghost and tried to regain control of my body. Mentally, I kept screaming "GO AWAY!" And finally, the ghost began to dissipate and I was able to move some parts of my body. My fingers started to work and soon I was able to get up and turn on the light.

Oh, wait, did I forget to mention that I regularly get sleep paralysis? Oh, and it actually only lasted like 2 minutes even though it seemed a lot longer than that. And when I said I wanted to scream for help, it was actually me trying to say out loud "oh shit, not again..."


Intellectual dishonesty


Now, this one is tricky and quite hard to pin down. In order to pin it down, it usually requires the cooperation of the culprit.

I see a lot of this form of dishonesty on this forum. I often describe this type of dishonesty as "playing dumb" and "being dense". It's pretty much consciously refusing to understand obviously obvious facts or saying/doing anything (no matter how ridiculous) to win an argument. Just search for threads on the scientific arguments FOR the flood and the feasibility of Noah's Ark to see some of the best examples of this form of dishonesty.

Actually, I remember one creationist suggesting that Noah could have drilled a hole in the hull of his ship right below the waterline to get fresh supply of fresh water for his family and animal. Anyone else recall this? This is intellectual dishonesty. In this particular case, the person suggested a ridiculous solution for the fresh water supply problem. And no, I don't believe anyone is that stupid. I think he knew it was ridiculous, but he was willing to say anything to win an argument.

The Gish Gallop debate strategy so widely used by creationists is another example of intellectual dishonesty. Look it up if you don't know what I mean.

Intellectual dishonesty could also be really dense to a point of refusing to understand most obvious facts, statements, or situations.

Take a look at the following video. The soldier holding the gun is being intellectually dishonest to a point of annoyance. The background of this movie is a rogue general has ordered a full nuclear strike against the Soviet Union. Unless the officer could get the 3 letter code word to the pentagon to cancel the order, the world will end in a sea of radiation.

Now, try to apply the soldier's dense attitude toward a creation vs. evolution debate. We see it all the time here, actually.

Another way a person can be intellectually dishonest is when he sees the flaws of his argument but doesn't say anything and continue to support a belief he knows to be false. I'll expand on this later because this is absolutely crucial to EvC debates.

That's it for now. I have to go do some stuff. I'll expand on these things later on.

Oh, and just in case the admins are intellectually dishonest, here is the reason why this subject is crucial to EvC debate. In a fruitful debate, both sides must be honest with each other. If I knew that my argument B is crap but present it anyway, I'm simply wasting time and someone else's brain power. He'd have to work hard to disprove argument B even though I already knew B was invalid. By discussing about various ways one could be dishonest, hopefully we could have more fruitful discussions instead of spending 30 pages on things that are obviously non-sense.


  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 4 (520309)
08-20-2009 5:10 PM


My usual problem
Where does this go?
  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1370 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 3 of 4 (520332)
08-20-2009 9:10 PM


Re: My usual problem
AdminNosy writes:

Where does this go?

And ladies and gentlemen of EvC, I present to you a perfect example of intellectual dishonesty.

Haha, just joking. Use your best judgment.

I suppose I should explain a little further. On the surface of it, this discussion may not have anything to do with EvC. But on the contrary, it has everything to do with the debate. The discussion I'm proposing is the very core of how people debate. Others may have experienced the frustration that I have experienced over the years. Some people simply aren't aware that the games and tactics they play to win a debate is dishonesty. I'm hoping this discussion will raise awareness of the obvious as well as subtle differences between debating in good faith and debating dishonestly.

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.


  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 4 of 4 (520530)
08-21-2009 11:21 PM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Different forms of dishonesty thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
  
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