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Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 687 (520581)
08-22-2009 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by ICANT
08-22-2009 9:34 AM


Re: Congrats. I Think You've One You Can Win.
ICANT writes:

You can not prove God does not exist.


You cannot prove that the invisible pink unicorn, or the flying spaghetti monster does not exist. Why don't you hold them in the same regard?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by ICANT, posted 08-22-2009 9:34 AM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by ICANT, posted 08-22-2009 3:46 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 687 (520627)
08-22-2009 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by ICANT
08-22-2009 3:46 PM


Re: Congrats. I Think You've One You Can Win.
ICANT writes:

I can not prove the beautiful pink unicorn or the spaghetti monster does not exist.

But they did not have a man write down in a book some 3300 years ago that they created the heavens and the earth, nor that they imparted life into a form.


Gaia and Ouranos are written about in a similar fashion, yet you do not believe in them. Surely you are not equating "really old" with "true"? After all, there are many old writings that are clearly false; for instance the Earth is not flat, or on the back of a giant tortoise.

So, what is the real reason?

ICANT writes:

So to prove He did not do what He said He did would go a long way towards proving He does not exist. Or at least He or the writers were liars.

So to prove God did not do what He said He did in Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 2:7 all anyone has to do is produce the evidence of the facts of exactly how the universe began to exist and life began to exist.


It sure would! But it goes both ways, right? If we can prove God didn't do other things he said he did, then we can cast significant doubt on the Genesis story as well, correct?

But before we get to that we still need to figure out why we are trying to disprove this particular story, and not going after Gaia. So tell me ICANT, why is this particular old story so much more trustworthy than any other?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ICANT, posted 08-22-2009 3:46 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by ICANT, posted 08-22-2009 6:26 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 687 (520643)
08-22-2009 7:35 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by ICANT
08-22-2009 6:26 PM


Re: Congrats. I Think You've One You Can Win.
ICANT writes:

You produce the evidence of the facts of exactly how the universe began to exist and life began to exist. and you get all those stories you are alluding too as well.


So you actually consider the story of Gaia, the Christian God, and the archaeological record to be on the same level as evidence?

Well... there's your problem!

ICANT writes:

So take them all out at once.

If the evidence exists present it.


See, science does not have to "take them all out at once" because it simply does not include them as preconceived notions. Instead we simply present the evidence and *then* decide what a reasonable explanation is based on said evidence.

Currently, the evidence we have indicates that the Christian God's creation story, as well as Gaia's, are not accurate in explaining what actually occurred. Note that science is not intentionally "disproving" such stories, its findings simply do not match up with what those stories claim.

There are many things that we do not know about our reality, but if you claim to know something about it you have to back that claim up with evidence. It is not the responsibility of others to prove you wrong.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by ICANT, posted 08-22-2009 6:26 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ICANT, posted 08-22-2009 7:56 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 687 (520652)
08-22-2009 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ICANT
08-22-2009 7:56 PM


Re: Congrats. I Think You've One You Can Win.
ICANT writes:

I gave my evidence with its source.


And you neglected to reply to my question about if "It was written a long time ago" is equivalent in your mind to "It is true." You appear to be favoring one story over all others, so why is that? Also, can you clarify why you consider the Bible to be similar evidence as the archaeological record?

ICANT writes:

Are you claiming to have scientific evidence how the universe began to exist? yes/no

Are you claiming to have scientific evidence how life on earth began to exist? yes/no


Yes, and Yes. Definitive observation of the event, forming a conclusive and complete understanding? No.

Scientists didn't come up with the big bang theory without observing background radiation and the expansion of the universe. Scientists didn't come up with their theories about the origin of life without studying the chemical makeup of life, and the fossil record. All of that is evidence (and there is much, much more) that leads scientists to their most popular theories about what happened. Is the understanding complete at this point? No, but it is enough to tell us how it didn't happen.

You have fixated on one very old story over other, similarly unevidenced and old stories and persist in evading the question why.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ICANT, posted 08-22-2009 7:56 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 08-22-2009 9:23 PM Phage0070 has responded

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 687 (520672)
08-23-2009 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by ICANT
08-22-2009 9:23 PM


Re: Old
ICANT writes:

As you have pointed out the Bible is old and Archaeology is a study of old things.


It is a quality they share, yes, but it isn't quite the entire picture. For instance: I just wrote today that I became the ruler of the world. Investigation of that writing isn't the same as the investigation of current events; the distinction should be clear.

ICANT writes:

Let me get this straight. You are changing my questions to read:

Are you claiming to have scientific evidence (enough to convince you) how the universe began to exist? yes/no

Are you claiming to have scientific evidence (enough to convince you) how life on earth began to exist? yes/no

Then answer yes to those two questions.

Then say no you do not have scientific evidence how the universe or life began to exist.

If that is not what you mean please make corrections as needed.


The correction is in that last part: I am saying "no, we do not have scientific "proof" how the universe or life began to exist." This is because what you are asking for is probably impossible, and not something that science can provide. Furthermore the entire question is irrelevant; just because we don't completely understand the process does not mean that your concept is correct. In fact, an incomplete understanding can indicate fairly well that you are wrong.

ICANT writes:

The MBR was not discovered until 1964. So your facts are a little out of kelter.


Irrelevant, in fact it supports the theory because observations matched the predictions of the theory. If the observations matched your theory better then it would be accepted over the current one... Oh wait, you don't *have* any observations that support your theory!

ICANT writes:

The Bible is the only book that addresses T=0.


Now you are just pulling things out of your rear. Not that it is unusual behavior mind you, but it bears pointing out.

ICANT writes:

Genesis 1:1 says: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth".


The "Book of I Just Made This Up" says "In the beginning Dubble Bubble Gum created the heaven and the earth". Can you give any reason other than "The Bible is older" that my version isn't just as good? Heck, it is even better given that we can tell that Dubble Bubble actually exists.

ICANT writes:

Science actually says as you go backward in time you reach a place the math will not work and tell you anything. Therefore there is 'no thing' there.


No, this is wrong. Again you make the mistake of thinking that math makes things true, or that your understanding of something is integral to its existence. In essence this stems from the childlike concept that if you close your eyes the world ceases to exist. This seems to be a manner in which you consistently err.

Our math DESCRIBES reality, it does not make reality. Most of our formulas have a range of situations over which they provide accurate results, beyond which are required other methods. If you go back far enough our math that describes the current state of things starts giving silly answers, if it works at all. This does NOT mean that "there is 'no thing' there", it means that our descriptions need to be modified.

It would be wonderful if we could come up with Grand Unification Theory, a formula that works in all situations and provides accurate results in all... but we are not there.

ICANT writes:

What is the scientific answer to how the universe began? "We don't know."


No, that isn't the scientific answer. The answer is: "We have lots and lots of data, and many ideas. The currently accepted one is the Big Bang Theory, and research is ongoing to either support or replace it. Check back for more updates!"

Your answer is: "I have a book here that says vague stuff, and I make up details as I see fit. It must be true because the book is really old, and I am convinced!"

ICANT writes:

...but you don't have one shread of evidence of the facts of exactly how the universe began to exist.


Really, so you are claiming that all of the math that gets so close to your much-parroted "T=0" isn't based on any data at all? Is that what you are claiming?


mike the wiz writes:

Rest-assured, I have thought it all through, as per usual.


ICANT writes:

If I don't know the answer what am I supposed to say I don't know.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by ICANT, posted 08-22-2009 9:23 PM ICANT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by kbertsche, posted 08-23-2009 4:56 AM Phage0070 has not yet responded

  
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