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Author Topic:   That boat don't float
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2200
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 121 of 453 (520761)
08-23-2009 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by iano
08-23-2009 4:37 PM


Overview
iano writes:

Is that average or local conditions? I'd imagine that amount of water falling uniformly to have a dampening effect on the ocean - if anything.

Do you mean the same source of water that scoured the entire crust of the earth such that there are no sedimentary rocks older than 4500 years was also so peaceful that a balsa wood woven boat would float in it for a year?

I guess with some people's god all things are indeed possible. The real question is if the model feeds the hungry, clothes the poor and heals the sick. So far, religious fanaticism against commonly perceived reality has a batting average on these issues that approximates zero, even by it's own standards. Instead we get suicide bombers, doctor murderers, and those who seek to destroy education, burn books and movies, and replace such with absolute authoritarianism, usually for the 'great leader' who supposedly is the intermediary between the deity and the laity.

But then again, a mechanical, or electrical, or rarely even civil engineer, if they refused to learn anything after graduation outside of one book, or through such pamphlets that are inherently dishonest about both religion and reality, would have no clue as to the scientific consensus concerning how oil, natural gas, and minerals are discovered and used to the benefit of the people, be they 'christian' or 'heathen.' Yet engineering is dependent upon the experimentally, and might I add hugely validated, findings of physics, chemistry, geology, and biology.

I guess I should add here that such discoveries are based (and discovered a gargantuan amount of evidence) upon a 13 billion year old universe, a 4.5 billion year old earth, along with a 3.9 billion year old life history rather than a 6000 year old earth, a 4500 year old massive yet utterly non-evidenced genetic bottleneck, and a boat that can't float. One model feeds the hungry, clothes the poor, and heals the sick and the other does not.

Here we are, arguing over if some proposed absurdly over sized for its structure and absurdly under sized for its purpose boat will float when according to Christianity we should be helping those less fortunate.

I think I need to do a good deed tomorrow, if not several. Wonder if anyone who wastes their time and soul defending the intentional misreading of such a clear and blatant parable would feel likewise.

Or is the parable misread as a newspaper account more important than the (to some of us) obvious central message?

Edited by anglagard, : paragraph - i guess i should add here

Edited by anglagard, : change singular to plural as in feed to feeds

Edited by anglagard, : add parentheses concerning discovery of deep time so we don't waste a few more posts


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by iano, posted 08-23-2009 4:37 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3221 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 122 of 453 (520763)
08-23-2009 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by DevilsAdvocate
08-22-2009 5:50 PM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
DevilsAdvocate writes:

Without a keel running the entire length, a large ship/boat cannot withstand the hydronamic forces and structural stresses placed on it and would literally break up.

that may be very true,

however we have no way of knowing how Noah reinforced the ark, there are no details of how he laid any of the beams...if there were explicit details, then we'd be able to ascertain if its was a sound structure.

we can assume he did it the way that would cause the boat to break up, or we can assume he must have reinforced it in a way that kept it secure.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by lyx2no, posted 08-23-2009 10:24 PM Peg has responded
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 3008 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 123 of 453 (520766)
08-23-2009 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Peg
08-23-2009 10:00 PM


Anything Goes
we can assume he did it the way that would cause the boat to break up, or we can assume he must have reinforced it in a way that kept it secure.

All ways available to him using only wood would have resulted in the ark breaking up. To assume he built the ark in a way that wouldn't break-up would assume he built it out of iron. Why not? We don't know what gopher wood is. Why not assume it was a type of patterned iron, like damask, which imitates wood grain? Find the lost iron works of Gopher and you've proven Noah's ark.

It's not a coincidence that evidence rhymes with schmevidence, Peg.

Edited by lyx2no, : Spelling of schmevidence. Ya' gots to get it right or folks'll think you're a twerp.


It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
— Anon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Peg, posted 08-23-2009 10:00 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 398 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 124 of 453 (520776)
08-23-2009 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by Peg
08-23-2009 10:00 PM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
...we have no way of knowing how Noah reinforced the ark, there are no details of how he laid any of the beams...if there were explicit details, then we'd be able to ascertain if its was a sound structure.

we can assume he did it the way that would cause the boat to break up, or we can assume he must have reinforced it in a way that kept it secure.


But since the entire story is myth in the first place, we might as well conjecture on how Harry Potter does his magic tricks.

Each has about the same relationship to reality; i.e., none.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Peg, posted 08-23-2009 10:00 PM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2200
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 125 of 453 (520779)
08-24-2009 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Coyote
08-23-2009 11:41 PM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
Coyote writes:

Each has about the same relationship to reality; i.e., none.

I found your succinctness quite amusing as in:


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Coyote, posted 08-23-2009 11:41 PM Coyote has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2481 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 126 of 453 (520781)
08-24-2009 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by anglagard
08-24-2009 12:16 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
Coyote writes:

Each has about the same relationship to reality; i.e., none.

analgard writes:

I found your succinctness quite amusing as in

Amusing but totally true.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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pandion
Member (Idle past 1292 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 127 of 453 (520784)
08-24-2009 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Peg
08-23-2009 10:00 PM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
Peg writes:

however we have no way of knowing how Noah reinforced the ark, there are no details of how he laid any of the beams...if there were explicit details, then we'd be able to ascertain if its was a sound structure.


Actually, that's not true. We know that he built the ark from wood. So says the Bible. Any reinforcing would have reduced the the space available for the hundreds of thousands of "kinds", along with food to sustain them for a year (how did Noah [not Moses, Peg] know how much food to put on board?), and provisions to catch and store fresh water.

Why am I doubtful? Maybe it is because your solution to the fact that the ark exceeded the structural limits of wood construction was to make the ark 50 cubits long and 300 cubits wide by turning the planking sideways in an effort to escape the known limits of wood construction. How strange that you don't understand that ships and boats are never build with planking from gunwale to keel as opposed to stem to stern. The reason is that your suggested method of planking would produce a leaky 10 ft. row boat, not to mention a sea bottom curiosity of a ship that went down as it was launched. Ship's planking runs from stem to stern because it adds strength to the ship.

we can assume he did it the way that would cause the boat to break up, or we can assume he must have reinforced it in a way that kept it secure.

There you go with the extra-Biblical claptrap again. Why would we make such assumptions? How would Noah (not Moses) have even known what reinforcements were necessary in a vessel so large. Certainly, no such vessels had ever been built before. How would he have known? Did god tell him? If that is the case, then we fall back again to miracle. And that begs the question, what is the point if it is just a miracle?

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iano
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 128 of 453 (520819)
08-24-2009 6:23 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by anglagard
08-23-2009 9:43 PM


Re: Overview
anglagard writes:

Do you mean the same source of water that scoured the entire crust of the earth such that there are no sedimentary rocks older than 4500 years was also so peaceful that a balsa wood woven boat would float in it for a year?

The OP (and me) are concerned with ark technicalities, not broadening the thread out to cover The Flud. Kon Tiki was a balsa wood construction which lasted a third of a year on the open sea before smashing up on a reef. I don't see much issue with balsa wood floating for a year - especially if coated in a layer of pitch to prevent waterlogging

I guess with some people's god all things are indeed possible.

I guess broad brushstroke skepticism makes all things impossible - even the perfectly feasible.

The real question is if the model feeds the hungry, clothes the poor and heals the sick. So far, religious fanaticism against commonly perceived reality has a batting average on these issues that approximates zero, even by it's own standards. Instead we get suicide bombers, doctor murderers, and those who seek to destroy education, burn books and movies, and replace such with absolute authoritarianism, usually for the 'great leader' who supposedly is the intermediary between the deity and the laity.

That's not the real question. The real question is contained in the OP

But then again, a mechanical, or electrical, or rarely even civil engineer, if they refused to learn anything after graduation outside of one book, or through such pamphlets that are inherently dishonest about both religion and reality, would have no clue as to the scientific consensus concerning how oil, natural gas, and minerals are discovered and used to the benefit of the people, be they 'christian' or 'heathen.' Yet engineering is dependent upon the experimentally, and might I add hugely validated, findings of physics, chemistry, geology, and biology.

I trained and worked as a mechanical engineer for many years before I became a Christian and have yet to find a reason to conform the Bible to the findings of Science. The Bibles inner consistancy works better (I find) when such 'stories' are taken as literal and to suppose them allegorical would be to throw a spanner into what is a fine mechanism. I can't say it causes me a moments trouble in my working day.

The path to Hell is rendered by God to be as intellectually satisfying to the unbeliever as the path to Heaven is to one whose eyes have been opened. It is fitting that the same world which causes one to fall to his knees before his Creator through awestruck humility at what has been created, should be the stumbling block by which so many will be damne, supposing themselves to have conquered it.

I guess I should add here that such discoveries are based (and discovered a gargantuan amount of evidence) upon a 13 billion year old universe, a 4.5 billion year old earth, along with a 3.9 billion year old life history rather than a 6000 year old earth, a 4500 year old massive yet utterly non-evidenced genetic bottleneck, and a boat that can't float. One model feeds the hungry, clothes the poor, and heals the sick and the other does not.

Feeds the hungry? Heals the sick? Are you out of your mind!! It's the poor and hungry who make the cloths to supply the few in possession of "the model" with this years fashions.

This world is nose-diving downwards towards oblivion in a last gasp fit of self-consumption. Half-hearted attempts to apply the brakes fail to recognise that we went over the parapet many years ago. To think otherwise is to express a level of faith in man that far exceeds anything required to float a boat.

Here we are, arguing over if some proposed absurdly over sized for its structure and absurdly under sized for its purpose boat will float when according to Christianity we should be helping those less fortunate.

I think I need to do a good deed tomorrow, if not several. Wonder if anyone who wastes their time and soul defending the intentional misreading of such a clear and blatant parable would feel likewise.

Or is the parable misread as a newspaper account more important than the (to some of us) obvious central message?

Good deeds? The obvious central message was that God is intent on wiping sin and sinners from the face of the earth. Telling folk that is something I consider a worthwhile thing to do - given that I was once one of the ones to be wiped out.

Thanks for reminding me to do it.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by anglagard, posted 08-23-2009 9:43 PM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

  
iano
Member (Idle past 233 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 129 of 453 (520826)
08-24-2009 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by RAZD
08-23-2009 7:18 PM


Re: Reality: displacement is what makes boats float or not
RAZD writes:

Balsa wood has excellent tensile strength along the fibers, but splits along fibers easily, and it has very little compressive strength, and would crush under load, whether load is from other parts of vessel (fasteners, beams, etc) or cargo.

It's not quite as bad as that (some quarters insist on a move to eg: Lebanese cedar on material sourcing grounds but let's perservere with the inclusion of balsa for the fun of it)

Physical properties for:

quote:
Red Oak

Young's modulus 12800 - 13000 MPa
Tensile strength 0 - 163 MPa
Compressive strength 47 - 61.2 MPa
Bending strength 100 - 130 MPa

Balsa

Young's modulus 1130 - 6000 MPa
Shear modulus 100 - 500 MPa
Tensile strength 0 - 75 MPa
Compressive strength 3.5 - 27 MPa


http://www.matbase.com/material/wood/class4-5-10-years/balsa/properties

Taking the higher end Balsa and lower end Oak we see that Balsa has half the compressive strength of Oak. Not bad.

Granted, a 100% balsa construction isn't to be recommended - especially where hooves are present. There's no reason not to mix things up abit though - using more suitable wood in areas requiring it.

Ah well, if you are going to move off into ad hoc ideas rather than keep it to what we know (which, granted, is small), then have fun.

We (and presumably Noah) know that woven structures are tough little critters. And flexible. And strong. And relatively light. We know that less dense than water substances float - the less dense the more they float. We know too that raft-like structures serve as excellent support structures for not a lot of technical complication in their manufacture - even if they can hardly be described as ships.

It's not so much a question of ad hoc as what's reasonably feasible given available skills, materials and observational know-how. So far there's not much of note which would prevent construction of an ark.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by RAZD, posted 08-23-2009 7:18 PM RAZD has responded

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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 130 of 453 (520843)
08-24-2009 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by pandion
08-21-2009 10:58 AM


Re: Limits of Wood
Hi pandion,

pandion writes:

what you are ignoring) is that 300 ft. is the structural limit of shipbuilding of all wood construction.

You have stated this information more than once but I can not find any reference to any information that makes such a statement. Did I miss it?

The ark is not a ship. It wasn't going anywhere. Its function was to float and keep the occupants alive.

I know they just completed a 9 story 30 meter apartment building in London this year. It is all wood construction. Source

So big things can be built out of wood.

There are huge 1300 year old wood buildings standing today.

The ark:

Was to be built of Gopher wood. Most scholars think that was cypress. Cypress trees get to be very large. There is one standing on my uncles land that is over 200 feet tall.

It Was to have a lower floor a second lower floor and a third lower floor and then there would have been the bottom, all below the main floor.

Assuming 10' including flooring for each floor the main floor would have been 40' from the bottom. The roof would have been at 52' from the bottom.

The ark would have been a rectangle 517' long 86' wide and 52' high.

With the door at 40' from the bottom the draft could have been 39' leaving 13' above water.

There was to be rooms on all floors. This would have made the ark construction very similar to the building in London.

The rooms could have been any size as none is given. Which would have provided all the vertical, horizontal and linear bracing need to keep the ark from collapsing from external pressure.

I have built boats using cypress lumber and if the lumber is dry you have to space the boards at least 1/4" apart or when they get wet they will buckle.

When properly built, once the boards have received water and swell they will not leak as long as the boards stay in the water.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by pandion, posted 08-21-2009 10:58 AM pandion has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 133 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 1:50 PM ICANT has responded
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Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 403
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 131 of 453 (520847)
08-24-2009 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ICANT
08-24-2009 12:35 PM


Re: Limits of Wood
So big things can be built out of wood.

Yes, but both buildings and boats have structural limits. For all materials, not just wood. The limits for wooden boats, even when reinforced with other materials, are known. The dimensions of the ark exceed those limits. Period.

When properly built, once the boards have received water and swell they will not leak as long as the boards stay in the water.

They're called planks. The issue with larger vessels is not their static integrity, it is their movement in a seaway. Small boats are not analogous to large boats in this respect for the same reasons that organisms with the dimensions of insects cannot be scaled up to the size of horses. As size increases the mass and resultant forces increase by a factor of 3 while cross sectional area (and consequently strength & resistance to torsional forces) only increases by a factor of 2.

Big wooden boats flex and open their seams.

Capt.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 12:35 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 1:49 PM Capt Stormfield has responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6259
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 132 of 453 (520851)
08-24-2009 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Capt Stormfield
08-24-2009 1:07 PM


Re: Limits of Wood
Hi Capt,

Capt Stormfield writes:

Yes, but both buildings and boats have structural limits. For all materials, not just wood. The limits for wooden boats, even when reinforced with other materials, are known. The dimensions of the ark exceed those limits. Period.

Well the ark was no boat.

It was not built like a boat.

It was built like a building with rooms in it.

Someone pointed to a paper that said it was structurally sound to take 30 meter waves. That is right at 100 feet.

But I was just pointing out facts about the ark that were not being discussed or considered.

I still would like to know who determined the structural limit that a wood ark would be 300 feet long.

It wasn't the manufacture of the wood.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6703
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 133 of 453 (520852)
08-24-2009 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ICANT
08-24-2009 12:35 PM


Re: Limits of Wood
The tower’s structural system consists of cross-laminated timber (CLT) panels pieced together to form load-bearing walls and floors. Even the
elevator and stair shafts are constructed of prefabricated CLT.

So you think Noah had the technology for CLT?
Yes this is an all wood structure, but it in no sense is it like the lumber Noah would have had. You really should check things out before you try to use them as evidence.

Do you have any idea what CLT(cross laminated timber) is?
This isn't a board like a 2"x10". This is engineered manufactured timber.

Now if you can show me that Noah had access to CLT I will give it to you. If not, then this is a really stupid example for you to use.

As for the 1300 year old wood building, which buildings re you referencing? Hopefully, not the Buddhist temple in Ikaruga, Japan.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 12:35 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
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pandion
Member (Idle past 1292 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 134 of 453 (520854)
08-24-2009 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ICANT
08-24-2009 12:35 PM


Re: Limits of Wood
ICANT writes:

The ark is not a ship. It wasn't going anywhere. Its function was to float and keep the occupants alive.


Exactly. The ark wouldn't have floated for long. Wood is not rigid enough to prevent flexing and separation of the planking. Doesn't matter if it is going anywhere or not. Both the Wyoming and the Great Republic weren't going anywhere when they sank. Both were anchored in shelter and their hulls were sprung by the action of the waves.

I know they just completed a 9 story 30 meter apartment building in London this year. It is all wood construction.

So, this apartment building is floating in the Thames? It is water-tight and windowless except for one small window at the top? No? Then what is your point? Certainly you can't believe that an apartment building is somehow analogous to the ark.

So big things can be built out of wood.

That's not the point. Big ships or arks can certainly be built from wood. The problem is that they would leak. Why the red herring? Do you think your efforts to change to point makes the mythology of Genesis any more believable?

Was to be built of Gopher wood. Most scholars think that was cypress. Cypress trees get to be very large. There is one standing on my uncles land that is over 200 feet tall.

That's probably a very impressive tree. My guess is that it sways in the wind. Trees are pretty flexible you know. And that flexibility is what causes the problem with sea going vessels longer than 300 ft. It causes them to leak, even more so that the ark was caulked with tar and only tar.

There are huge 1300 year old wood buildings standing today.

The point is not how long it would have lasted on dry land but if it would have floated for a year after a big storm. Big boats flex and the planking separates. That doesn't matter to a wood building but it does to a ship.

When properly built, once the boards have received water and swell they will not leak as long as the boards stay in the water.

Unless the hull snakes or sags/hogs enough to cause openings. Ships longer than 300 ft. leak. You don't think that your wet wood hypothesis applied to the Wyoming or the Great Republic? They both leaked and required constant pumping.

You seem to be having trouble in understanding the point. No one is claiming that it would be impossible to build the ark from wood, only that it would not be sea worthy. Please try to keep up.


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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6703
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 4.1


Message 135 of 453 (520856)
08-24-2009 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ICANT
08-24-2009 12:35 PM


Re: Limits of Wood
Oh I should have read the whole article before I posted. Your all wood building is not all wood. Unless you think metal brackets don't count. I assumed that they must have had to use metal supports and brackets, because unless you are going to build it like a log home(which would be impossible at this size), there is going to be a need for metal supports and brackets.

From the article you linked to.

The cross-laminated timber walls and floors are held together with steel angles and screws.

Hmm, kind of kills your whole argument there doesn't it.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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