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Author Topic:   That boat don't float
Capt Stormfield
Member
Posts: 402
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 136 of 453 (520862)
08-24-2009 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by ICANT
08-24-2009 1:49 PM


Re: Limits of Wood
Well the ark was no boat.

It was not built like a boat.

It was built like a building with rooms in it.

Is it your impression that boats don't have compartments? Boats are designed, from the standpoint of both external shape and interior structure, to maximize their strength. "Not built like a boat" does not carry a positive connotation to anyone familiar with why boats are the way they are.

I still would like to know who determined the structural limit that a wood ark would be 300 feet long.

Shipwrights with centuries of experience behind them who did their damnedest to exceed it.

KP


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 1:49 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 137 of 453 (520904)
08-24-2009 9:08 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by ICANT
08-24-2009 1:49 PM


Re: Limits of Wood
ICANT writes:

Well the ark was no boat.

It was not built like a boat.

It was built like a building with rooms in it.

You do realize that modern ship building is predicated on the notion of compartmentalization in order to reduce the risk of unchecked flooding from one section of a ship to the next resulting in catastrophic sinking

I guess modern Naval ships just have watertight hatches and doors between decks and compartments just for looks.


"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe." - Carl Sagan

"It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World


This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 1:49 PM ICANT has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 19754
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 138 of 453 (520905)
08-24-2009 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by iano
08-24-2009 8:17 AM


Re: Reality: displacement is what makes boats float or not
Hi again iano,

Taking the higher end Balsa and lower end Oak we see that Balsa has half the compressive strength of Oak. Not bad.

Understood, but this means that fasteners need to be twice as extensive, not impossible, but again taking room from the inside of the envelope.

We (and presumably Noah) know that woven structures are tough little critters.

Actually no. In fiberglass construction biaxial cloth, where the fibers run in two different layers at 90% that are stitched together with a binder until glassed, is stronger than woven cloth in the final layup for the same weight of glass and resin.

It's not so much a question of ad hoc as what's reasonably feasible given available skills, materials and observational know-how. So far there's not much of note which would prevent construction of an ark.

Except that you are making stuff up, and will continue to do so in order to maintain a "gosh it's possible" opinion. It's ad hoc and confirmation bias in full glory.

A more scientific approach would be to first determine what technology was available, and then see how that could be applied to the problem.

There are reed boats in the Med, there are planked boats, and there are rafts. I am not aware of any woven boats in that neck of the world.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by iano, posted 08-24-2009 8:17 AM iano has not yet responded

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6187
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 139 of 453 (520906)
08-24-2009 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Theodoric
08-24-2009 1:50 PM


Re: Limits of Wood
Hi Theo,

Theodoric writes:

Do you have any idea what CLT(cross laminated timber) is?

I hope I do as much as I have used over the years. I am a contractor.

This is a system where you apply thin sheets of material with the grain going across each other every other layer. If you want to make it stronger you add layers at a 45° angle from both sides between the vertical and horozontal layers the layers being glued, and or fastened with fasteners.

I have built 5' wide free standing circular stairs using this system.

If I remember correctly the panels they used in the apartments were 10'x40'x10".

Theodoric writes:

Now if you can show me that Noah had access to CLT I will give it to you. If not, then this is a really stupid example for you to use.

He had lumber.
He had glue.
He had fastners.

All he had to do was put a vertical layer on then glue and fasten a layer at a 45° angle left to right. Then apply a layer at 45° from right to left. Then apply a layer horzontal.

If he did not think that was strong enough he could have repeated the process. All the interior walls and floors could have been constructed in the same way. He only had 120 years to build the ark. I am sure there was plenty of people that would have gladly worked on this crazy mans project just to relieve him of the burden of his posessions.

Theodoric writes:

As for the 1300 year old wood building, which buildings re you referencing? Hopefully, not the Buddhist temple in Ikaruga, Japan.

I'm not sure if that is the one or not but there are several really old wood buildings. My point was that wood don't rot as fast as some here was insuating. One has a tree for its center pole that is over 200' tall. That would make a rather long board. We have some trees in California almost 400' tall. How tall was a tree of Gopherwood? We don't even know what gopherwood was, must less how tall they grew.

God Bless,


"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 1:50 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19754
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 6.2


Message 140 of 453 (520908)
08-24-2009 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by ICANT
08-24-2009 9:26 PM


What archeology shows for boat building technology
Hi ICANT, I have a simple problem here:

He had lumber.
He had glue.
He had fastners.

All he had to do was put a vertical layer on then glue and fasten a layer at a 45° angle left to right. Then apply a layer at 45° from right to left. Then apply a layer horzontal.

So you are saying that he built a state-of-the-art cold-molded (as opposed to plywood making) wooden boat ...

... that needed to be caulked with tar inside and out to keep water out of the lack of leaks?

Fantasy is fun, but the reality is that the ship building technology then was not that advanced, as shown by the evidence of all the wrecks of ships that have been built and the absolute absence of any mythological story of such wood forming technology.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/greatpyramid5.htm

quote:
When one of the slabs was raised from the eastern pit, the planking of the great boat was seen, completely The assembly work on Khufu's boat dismantled, but arranged in the semblance of its finished form.

The cedar boat now on display was originally dismantled into 1,224 individual parts. On top of the wood was a layer of mats and ropes, an instrument made of flint, and some small pieces of white plaster. The prow of the boat, a wooden column topped by a round wooden disk, was found at the western end of the pit. This column was connected to two long wooden pieces that extended along the bottom of the pit. Most of the wooden parts had been tied together with ropes. Also found inside the pit were many other items, such as twelve oars, each mad from a single piece of wood, fifty-eight poles, three cylindrical columns and five doors. In total, there were thirteen Another view of Khufu's boat being reconstructedlayers of materials consisting of 651 artifacts ranging in size from 10 centimeters to 23 meters.

The boat was removed, piece by piece, under the supervision of Ahmed Youssef Mustafa, the master restorer who worked on Hetephere's funerary furniture. It is 43.3 meters (142 feet) long and made of Lebanese cedar wood and some acacia. Its displacement was 45 tons. The maximum draft is 1.48 meters (5 feet). It is 5.9 meters wide. The separate parts of the boat had numerous U-shaped holes so that the boat could be 'stitched' together using ropes made of vegetable fibers. Interestingly many of the boats planks were marked with signs for prow, stern, port and starboard. Nevertheless it took Mustafa some ten years to completely reassemble the boat. That work was not completed until 1968.


http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/aboat.htm

quote:
The ancient Egyptians once again reached out of the past to awe the world with another of their buried secrets - the Abydos ships. In 1991 in the desert near the temple of Khentyamentiu, archaeologists uncovered the remains of 14 ships dating back to the early Barques, Barges, and Byblos Boatsfirst dynasty (2950-2775 BC), possibly associated with King Aha, the first ruler of that dynasty. These 75 foot long ships are buried side by side and have wooden hulls, rough stone boulders which were used as anchors, and "sewn" wooden planks. Also found within their desert graves were remains of the woven straps that joined the planks, as well as reed bundles that were used to seal seams between planks. The Abydos ships have the honor of being the world’s oldest planked boats.

No one knows exactly when the first ship was built, but we do know that the ancient Egyptians were creating ships with technological skills far beyond their time, well before the invention of the wheel.


That would appear to be the height of boat building technology circa 3000 BCE. No woven hulls of balsa wood, no laminated parts, but bits and pieces tied together.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by ICANT, posted 08-24-2009 9:26 PM ICANT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by ICANT, posted 08-25-2009 7:16 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5953
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 141 of 453 (520912)
08-24-2009 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by ICANT
08-24-2009 9:26 PM


Re: Limits of Wood
I have built 5' wide free standing circular stairs using this system.

Not a 300' boat is it.

He had lumber.
He had glue.
He had fastners.

Hmm, what kind of glue? Animal glues are soluble in water. I do not see how animal glues would be effective. Also, even if Noah had developed this eathshattering system for building, why did they abandon it after the flood. It just isn't logical.

What kind of fasteners? Wood? Your all wood building has metal fasteners and brackets. So how did Noah build it to stand the stresses? The building you mention is not 300 feet long and have to deal with the stresses of ocean swells.

Any chance you can give us an actual reference to the building with 200' center pole. The Japaneses temple building is only 120' tall. Also are you suggesting there has been no maintenance, that parts of the building have not been replaced in 1300 years? I wonder if I can find out the maintenance schedule for the building.
Oh this is interesting

quote:
Although the pagoda is five-storied, it does not function as such to allow one to climb up inside but it is rather designed to inspire people with its external view.

I find it very interesting that you suggest that there were 200' tall trees that Noah had access to. I guess you could claim the climate was anythig you want it to be, and gopherwood could have any characteristics you want it ot have. Do you think he cut 200' boards? or did he use them whole?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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pandion
Member (Idle past 1074 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 142 of 453 (520920)
08-25-2009 1:33 AM


This is getting funny
So far, the creationist response has been varied and silly. The construction of the ark has been essentially described as a big wicker basket, a balsa raft, and a construction of CLTs. I wonder. Have any of these people actually read the Bible? Wouldn't it be great to be a creationist and be able to make it up as you went along? I doesn't matter what the Bible says or what the facts of science or reality are, as a creationist, you could propose any imaginary answer in an effort to make mythology seem possible. Creationism is so much easier than science.

One creationist even demanded to know who determined that the structural limits of a wood "ark" was 300 ft. The answer was in the OP where it was explained that there were 9 wooden ships of over 300 ft. that were built between 1900 and 1909. All of them leaked beyond the capabilities of any caulk of the day to stop from the day they hit the water. No one determined that 300 ft. was the limit. It's just that experience showed it to be the case. All of the 10 ships of all wood construction (in spite of steel cross bracing) that exceeded 300 ft. leaked badly.

I have even learned that a 200 ft. cypress tree, which apparently is not affected by wind, somehow proves that a 450 to 550 ft. box would not flex by the action of waves, or that a floating apartment building somehow makes the ark possible.


Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2185
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 143 of 453 (520924)
08-25-2009 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 142 by pandion
08-25-2009 1:33 AM


Re: This is getting funny
pandion writes:

So far, the creationist response has been varied and silly.

Yes, whenever I get upset over what appears to be intentional deception, I have to remember the comedic value.

A few years ago, Iano posited some elaborate wooden pump mechanism for the bilge and the sewage that somehow could be operated by the limited crew of this purported ark. Talk about some serious excuses, conjured up images of some of the more accomplished stand up comics. It just amazes me how such hilarious apologetics are so much more important to fundamentalists than any ignored sermon on any mount.

But that is expected when one prefers the message of Paul over that of Jesus due to personal convenience.

Could one imagine mucking all those dino turds? Not to mention having to adjust all those saddles every day so they don't get bedsores.

That boat just don't float.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3003 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 144 of 453 (520925)
08-25-2009 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by lyx2no
08-23-2009 10:24 PM


Re: Anything Goes
lyx2no writes:

We don't know what gopher wood is

we do know what gopher wood is

the word comes from the Hebrew root tar or pitch (ko'pher) If gopher is related to this root word, it must mean that its a resinous wood


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by lyx2no, posted 08-23-2009 10:24 PM lyx2no has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by anglagard, posted 08-25-2009 3:45 AM Peg has responded
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 Message 172 by pandion, posted 08-25-2009 12:14 PM Peg has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3003 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 145 of 453 (520927)
08-25-2009 3:33 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by Coyote
08-23-2009 11:41 PM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
Coyote writes:

But since the entire story is myth in the first place

mythical people dont turn up in the genealogies of real people.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2185
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 146 of 453 (520928)
08-25-2009 3:45 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Peg
08-25-2009 3:30 AM


Re: Anything Goes
Peg writes:

we do know what gopher wood is

the word comes from the Hebrew root tar or pitch (ko'pher) If gopher is related to this root word, it must mean that its a resinous wood

Care to take a shot at providing an identification of this 'gopher wood' either currently living or in the fossil record?


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 3:30 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 3:59 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14747
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 147 of 453 (520929)
08-25-2009 3:46 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Peg
08-25-2009 3:33 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
quote:

mythical people dont turn up in the genealogies of real people.

They don't ? Julius Caesar claimed descent from the goddess Venus via the Trojan prince Aeneas. I'd call Venus mythical and Julius Caesar real. Wouldn't you ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 3:33 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 3:58 AM PaulK has responded
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3003 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 148 of 453 (520930)
08-25-2009 3:53 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by Theodoric
08-24-2009 2:10 PM


Re: Limits of Wood
Theodoric writes:

The cross-laminated timber walls and floors are held together with steel angles and screws.

Hmm, kind of kills your whole argument there doesn't it.

Noah would have had access and knowledge of metal forging in his day, its possible that he used it in the arks construction.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Theodoric, posted 08-24-2009 2:10 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Theodoric, posted 08-25-2009 9:39 AM Peg has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3003 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 149 of 453 (520932)
08-25-2009 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by PaulK
08-25-2009 3:46 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
PaulK writes:

They don't ? Julius Caesar claimed descent from the goddess Venus via the Trojan prince Aeneas. I'd call Venus mythical and Julius Caesar real. Wouldn't you ?

do you have his genealogy?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2009 3:46 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2009 4:07 AM Peg has responded

    
Peg
Member (Idle past 3003 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 150 of 453 (520933)
08-25-2009 3:59 AM
Reply to: Message 146 by anglagard
08-25-2009 3:45 AM


Re: Anything Goes
anglagard writes:

Care to take a shot at providing an identification of this 'gopher wood' either currently living or in the fossil record?

cypress

its available in abundance in the middle east


This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by anglagard, posted 08-25-2009 3:45 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

    
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