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Author Topic:   That boat don't float
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15642
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 151 of 453 (520934)
08-25-2009 4:07 AM
Reply to: Message 149 by Peg
08-25-2009 3:58 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
quote:

do you have his genealogy?

I can't find a full listing on line, but why would that matter ? Once you concede that people may claim descent form a mythical ancestor there is no bar to creating a genealogy including mythical ancestors.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 3:58 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 4:35 AM PaulK has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2203
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 152 of 453 (520935)
08-25-2009 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 147 by PaulK
08-25-2009 3:46 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
PaulK writes:

They don't ? Julius Caesar claimed descent from the goddess Venus via the Trojan prince Aeneas. I'd call Venus mythical and Julius Caesar real. Wouldn't you ?

My wife and daughter are direct descendants of the Norse God of fertility, weather, and agriculture, Freyr. this is according to the fact they can trace their genealogy back to Robert of Normandy, half brother of William the Conqueror, according to the Mormons. Well it does not take much to get to his direct ancestor, Rollo, who according to the ancient sources, was directly descended from Freyr through several generations.

So there you have it. My wife and daughter are direct descendants of a Norse god.

As for me, my ancestors came from the Ozarks and almost all had the first name of William. Therefore my ancestors are likely the original hillbillies.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2009 3:46 AM PaulK has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Theodoric, posted 08-25-2009 9:40 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 153 of 453 (520936)
08-25-2009 4:35 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by PaulK
08-25-2009 4:07 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
PaulK writes:

I can't find a full listing on line, but why would that matter ? Once you concede that people may claim descent form a mythical ancestor there is no bar to creating a genealogy including mythical ancestors.

evidence matters

if noah wasnt a real person, then neither is the whole jewish race

perhaps they also are figment of our imaginations lol


This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2009 4:07 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2009 4:51 AM Peg has responded
 Message 155 by anglagard, posted 08-25-2009 4:57 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 156 by Huntard, posted 08-25-2009 5:07 AM Peg has responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15642
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 154 of 453 (520937)
08-25-2009 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Peg
08-25-2009 4:35 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
quote:

evidence matters

So where's your evidence that genealogies of real people never include mythical people ? We have evidence that people claimed descent from mythical figures. We have evidence of genealogies being cooked up to support claimed ancestry. Even if you dicount Anglagard's evidence it's certainly clear that it can happen.

quote:

if noah wasnt a real person, then neither is the whole jewish race

That's begging the question. It's like saying that if Venus wasn't a real goddess the Roman Julii wouldn't exist.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 4:35 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 5:09 AM PaulK has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2203
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 155 of 453 (520938)
08-25-2009 4:57 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Peg
08-25-2009 4:35 AM


Logic or Emotion?
peg writes:

evidence matters

if noah wasnt a real person, then neither is the whole jewish race

perhaps they also are figment of our imaginations lol

I think someone slept through that logic class, be it either under the math or philosophy departments.

Edited by anglagard, : title


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 4:35 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 635 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 156 of 453 (520939)
08-25-2009 5:07 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Peg
08-25-2009 4:35 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
Peg writes:

if noah wasnt a real person, then neither is the whole jewish race.


What the hell? You really do have problems with logic, don't you?


I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 4:35 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 5:13 AM Huntard has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 157 of 453 (520940)
08-25-2009 5:09 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by PaulK
08-25-2009 4:51 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
PaulK writes:

So where's your evidence that genealogies of real people never include mythical people ?

Julias may have claimed to have descended from a god, but no one ever claimed that Noah was

he was simply a man who's geneology is still available...there is nothing extravagant about his geneology, its a fairly standard record and for this reason its quite believable.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2009 4:51 AM PaulK has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2009 5:38 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 158 of 453 (520941)
08-25-2009 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Huntard
08-25-2009 5:07 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
Huntard writes:

What the hell? You really do have problems with logic, don't you?

it would not be logical for anyone's genealogy to include a mythical person

I bet you Julius caesars geneology, if it existed, does not have the name of the god he said he decsended from in it

Yet, we have the geneology of a man who is supposed to be a myth!!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Huntard, posted 08-25-2009 5:07 AM Huntard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Huntard, posted 08-25-2009 5:25 AM Peg has not yet responded
 Message 161 by anglagard, posted 08-25-2009 6:04 AM Peg has responded

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 635 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 159 of 453 (520942)
08-25-2009 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Peg
08-25-2009 5:13 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
Peg writes:

it would not be logical for anyone's genealogy to include a mythical person


What, you think it's still possible to look back that many years and know that person was in fact real, even now? What back then, when they certainly hadn't that much written down as we have.

I bet you Julius caesars geneology, if it existed, does not have the name of the god he said he decsended from in it.

And I bet you it did.

Yet, we have the geneology of a man who is supposed to be a myth!!!

Yes, anmd Angalards kids also have that.


I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 5:13 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15642
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 160 of 453 (520943)
08-25-2009 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by Peg
08-25-2009 5:09 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
quote:

Julias may have claimed to have descended from a god, but no one ever claimed that Noah was

That depends on how you interpret Luke 3:38!

Regardless this is an evasion. You asserted that mythical people do not appear in genealogies. You were the one who said that evidence was needed. Where is your evidence ?

quote:

he was simply a man who's geneology is still available...there is nothing extravagant about his geneology, its a fairly standard record and for this reason its quite believable.

His genealogy contains clear indications of myth (and that includes his descendants, too!)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 5:09 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2203
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 161 of 453 (520945)
08-25-2009 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Peg
08-25-2009 5:13 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
peg writes:

it would not be logical for anyone's genealogy to include a mythical person

Perhaps not, yet we have an immaculate conception. Also I believe it is important to point out that some Norman, yet converted royalty evidently considered it important enough to preserve a genealogy linked to 'heathen' deities.

I suppose one could call this the Christmas Tree effect.

For another thing, was it uncommon? Not in my research in history. Virtually every ancient emperor claimed divine descent regardless of place be it Rome, Persia, China, Japan, or Mexico, among others. It goes with the territory.

And then we have Jesus. God was his dad but he is god so he is his own father. I think they could have blamed earthquakes on Socrates, considering all that rolling in his grave.

All these claims of divinity are a messy business, especially when mortal posters here claim to be the sole spokesperson for god.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 5:13 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 6:41 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

  
iano
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 162 of 453 (520947)
08-25-2009 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by anglagard
08-25-2009 2:54 AM


Re: This is getting funny
anglagard writes:

A few years ago, Iano posited some elaborate wooden pump mechanism for the bilge and the sewage that somehow could be operated by the limited crew of this purported ark. Talk about some serious excuses, conjured up images of some of the more accomplished stand up comics. It just amazes me how such hilarious apologetics are so much more important to fundamentalists than any ignored sermon on any mount.

Your ability to recognise tongue-in-cheek falls short of your ability to remember. The point then (as now) is to suggest that which is feasible given the kinds of materials and tooling around at the time. Not because I think that's how it was necessarily done but to illustrate the poverty of the objection at times - your own off-topic ramblings being a case in point in this thread.

There are good grounds for objecting to a planked ark on the grounds of watertightness. What are your engineering objections to a (far simpler) floating platform which doesn't rely on watertightness for buoyancy because..

pandion writes:

So far, the creationist response has been varied and silly.

..so far, the OP hasn't had much more than this to say on the matter.

But that is expected when one prefers the message of Paul over that of Jesus due to personal convenience.

Which is another way of saying that you belong to the catergory of person who has not yet integrated Jesus and Paul so as to arrive at a single, congruent message?

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by anglagard, posted 08-25-2009 2:54 AM anglagard has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by anglagard, posted 08-25-2009 6:33 AM iano has responded
 Message 169 by Theodoric, posted 08-25-2009 9:49 AM iano has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2203
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 163 of 453 (520949)
08-25-2009 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by iano
08-25-2009 6:20 AM


Re: This is getting funny
iano writes:

Your ability to recognise tongue-in-cheek falls short of your ability to remember. The point then (as now) is to suggest that which is feasible given the kinds of materials and tooling around at the time. Not because I think that's how it was necessarily done but to illustrate the poverty of the objection at times - your own off-topic ramblings being a case in point in this thread.

There are good grounds for objecting to a planked ark on the grounds of watertightness. What are your engineering objections to a (far simpler) floating platform which doesn't rely on watertightness for buoyancy because..

I am quite familiar with your ability to brag about any supposed superiority to all others, along with a singular inability to admit anything short of personal infallibility. I remember that Russia border thing where you insisted that Uzbekistan was part of Russia and then because of the infallibility thing insisted upon some ridiculous difference between Russia and Russian. So what is the definition of 'is?' slick willie?

Yeah, I went off on you and off topic. Should have known better than to even associate with you at all.

I will never be a part of your mantra that GOD is all about fear and hate.

If you want to take me out mr. false pride, create a topic we can truly engage in. Yeah this balsa wood woven basket survived the scouring of the crust of the earth, yeah all genetics is a lie, yeah all geology is a lie, yeah all radioactivity is a lie, yeah, yeah yeah. What bullshit.

Other than that, I sincerely hope we never cross paths again, my mistake.

Edited by anglagard, : Some additions for clarity.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by iano, posted 08-25-2009 6:20 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by iano, posted 08-25-2009 8:11 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3269 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 164 of 453 (520950)
08-25-2009 6:41 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by anglagard
08-25-2009 6:04 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
anglagard writes:

For another thing, was it uncommon? Not in my research in history. Virtually every ancient emperor claimed divine descent regardless of place be it Rome, Persia, China, Japan, or Mexico, among others. It goes with the territory.

yes they did claim it but this isnt the issue really

no one claimed Noah was of divine origin, we have a geneology of a man who was simply a man... why is that so unbelievable?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by anglagard, posted 08-25-2009 6:04 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

  
iano
Member (Idle past 280 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 165 of 453 (520973)
08-25-2009 8:11 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by anglagard
08-25-2009 6:33 AM


Re: This is getting funny
I am quite familiar with your ability to brag about any supposed superiority to all others, along with a singular inability to admit anything short of personal infallibility. I remember that Russia border thing where you insisted that Uzbekistan was part of Russia and then because of the infallibility thing insisted upon some ridiculous difference between Russia and Russian. So what is the definition of 'is?' slick willie?

Yeah, I went off on you and off topic. Should have known better than to even associate with you at all.

I will never be a part of your mantra that GOD is all about fear and hate.

If you want to take me out mr. false pride, create a topic we can truly engage in. Yeah this balsa wood woven basket survived the scouring of the crust of the earth, yeah all genetics is a lie, yeah all geology is a lie, yeah all radioactivity is a lie, yeah, yeah yeah. What bullshit.

Other than that, I sincerely hope we never cross paths again, my mistake.

As you would have it. Except for this one misrepresentation. It's a statement of my position - not a rebuttal of your view.

I will never be a part of your mantra that GOD is all about fear and hate.

Whilst God is about wrath and his wrath expresses itself in it's hatred of sin and whilst folk will surely tremble in abject fear if encountering him in their sin, He is not 'all about fear and hate'. His is about love also - sufficient unto death on a cross. And to my recollection I speak of/argue both sides: as much about his forgiveness, his grace, his generosity, his seeking that none be lost ...as I do his furious wrath and hatred of sin.

God of the Bible is not your (heavily caricatured) Jesus-of-the-good-deeds.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by anglagard, posted 08-25-2009 6:33 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

  
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