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Author Topic:   That boat don't float
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6303
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 166 of 453 (520991)
08-25-2009 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by Peg
08-25-2009 3:30 AM


Re: Anything Goes
we do know what gopher wood is

the word comes from the Hebrew root tar or pitch (ko'pher) If gopher is related to this root word, it must mean that its a resinous wood

And that resinous wood is?

Now do you see the problem?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6303
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 167 of 453 (520995)
08-25-2009 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by Peg
08-25-2009 3:53 AM


Re: Limits of Wood
Noah would have had access and knowledge of metal forging in his day, its possible that he used it in the arks construction.

Do you accept there was a bronze age, followed by an iron age?

How do you know what level metal forging was in Noah's day? If he knew advance metallurgy why did he not pass it on? Where the heck are the remnants of this magic boat? We should be able to find the metal remnants. Some sort of copper alloy would be good metal to use on his boat. Copper alloys are much more resistant to weather than iron and some extent even steel. Where is the evidence?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 3:53 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by Peg, posted 08-27-2009 6:56 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6303
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 168 of 453 (520996)
08-25-2009 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by anglagard
08-25-2009 4:13 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
Therefore my ancestors are likely the original hillbillies.

And probably all first cousins.

Ha ha.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by anglagard, posted 08-25-2009 4:13 AM anglagard has acknowledged this reply

    
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6303
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 169 of 453 (520997)
08-25-2009 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by iano
08-25-2009 6:20 AM


Re: This is getting funny
Which is another way of saying that you belong to the catergory of person who has not yet integrated Jesus and Paul so as to arrive at a single, congruent message?

Not yet??? Not yet??

You pompous, self righteous...
No not worth getting banned. Do you not understand?? A lot of us do not care about your jesus inspired Pauline mumbo-jumbo.

What we do enjoy is your jumping through logical hoops, torturing the bible, and all nonsensical explanations you must conjure in order to justify your beliefs.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by iano, posted 08-25-2009 6:20 AM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by iano, posted 08-25-2009 10:16 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 170 of 453 (521004)
08-25-2009 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Theodoric
08-25-2009 9:49 AM


Re: This is getting funny
Not yet??? Not yet?? You pompous, self righteous...

No not worth getting banned. Do you not understand?? A lot of us do not care about your jesus inspired Pauline mumbo-jumbo.

Non sequitur. I'm not suggesting you should care. I'm suggesting that the anglagards viewpoint that Jesus and Paul delivered irreconcilable messages arises out of his not yet having integrated the two into one congruent message.

What we do enjoy is your jumping through logical hoops, torturing the bible, and all nonsensical explanations you must conjure in order to justify your beliefs.

Fine. Now point out what they are - in topic.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Theodoric, posted 08-25-2009 9:49 AM Theodoric has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18487
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 171 of 453 (521012)
08-25-2009 10:51 AM


An Observation
The premise of this thread is that a seaworthy boat of the proscribed Biblical design and dimensions is impossible. But where so many variables are involved demonstrating zero probability isn't possible, and it takes only a teeny tiny but non-zero probability to prove the premise wrong.

Believers in the Biblical stories who are of a scientific mind tend to enforce some odd constraints. They believe in miracles, but when they enter the creation/evolution debate they think that what was miraculous in the Bible must also be scientifically possible. That's why they only require that something not be scientifically impossible. Real world evidence doesn't enter into it. If it's not impossible and if the Bible said it happened, then that's what happened.

This is why this thread is full of incredible claims about the technology and shipbuilding skills of ancient Middle Eastern desert traders. It isn't impossible that Noah had access to shipbuilding technologies we're unaware of today, or that he somehow developed them himself (as well as anticipating the need for them), and this is all that creationists require to be satisfied. As far as they're concerned, the speculations they've offered are more than sufficient to have cast doubt on claims of the impossibility of the ark, and so the premise of this thread fails. If pressed, I'd be forced to agree with them.

Pushing and prodding Iano and ICANT and Peg into corners from which they're forced to make up even more fantastical proposals is where this thread is going. The more interesting discussion would be about why they're willing to entertain such wild ideas, but clearly their ideas don't seem wild to them and so this discussion could never happen.

--Percy


Replies to this message:
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pandion
Member (Idle past 1171 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 172 of 453 (521019)
08-25-2009 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Peg
08-25-2009 3:30 AM


Re: Anything Goes
Peg writes:

we do know what gopher wood is


Nonsense. According to Strong's "gopher" comes from an unused root that probably meant "to house in." Strong's defines the word as "the wood from which the ark was made, meaning and exact type unknown." Even Gesenius states the his association of the word with "pitch trees" is speculative. Gesenius speculates that gopher wood may have been pine, fir, cypress, cedar or other wood used in shipbuilding. But you know better than Strong and Gesenius.

the word comes from the Hebrew root tar or pitch (ko'pher) If gopher is related to this root word, it must mean that its a resinous wood

If? What do you mean "If gopher is related..." You said that we know what gopher wood is, not that we guess what it may have been. Further, "resinous wood" doesn't tell us what wood it was.

You see, we just don't know. It's a myth anyway.

Edited by pandion, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 3:30 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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pandion
Member (Idle past 1171 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


Message 173 of 453 (521022)
08-25-2009 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Peg
08-25-2009 3:33 AM


Re: Not 300 ft boards! Doh!!
Peg writes:

mythical people dont turn up in the genealogies of real people.


I don't think that's true. But on the other hand, mythical people do turn up in the mythical genealogies of mythical people.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Peg, posted 08-25-2009 3:33 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
iano
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 174 of 453 (521029)
08-25-2009 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Percy
08-25-2009 10:51 AM


Re: An Observation
Pushing and prodding Iano and ICANT and Peg into corners from which they're forced to make up even more fantastical proposals is where this thread is going. The more interesting discussion would be about why they're willing to entertain such wild ideas, but clearly their ideas don't seem wild to them and so this discussion could never happen.

Apart from a post from RAZD, could you link me to where I was pushed and prodded (on-topically) by anyone? I thought it'd be a bit of fun to dance a 'what's-eminently-feasible' dance. But it seems that most would prefer to take refuge behind "if it ain't been done then it's not doable" neglecting the fact that the ark, if true, would represent a unique, never-to-be-repeated exercise.

If you have some insight into why raft should be considered fantastical then I'd be interested in your comments.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Percy, posted 08-25-2009 10:51 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Perdition, posted 08-25-2009 1:40 PM iano has responded
 Message 178 by Percy, posted 08-25-2009 2:23 PM iano has responded

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 1408 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 175 of 453 (521035)
08-25-2009 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by iano
08-25-2009 1:04 PM


Re: An Observation
neglecting the fact that the ark, if true, would represent a unique, never-to-be-repeated exercise.

Rather than a "if it ain't been done then it's not doable" mentality, I thin it's more a long the lines of, "IF it was done once, why wouldn't they have continued doing so?"

If Noah learned some special way of building boats, and his family was all that was left after the Flud, why didn't this knowledge survive? Did they decide it was a great method, but no one would ever need to sail on a big body of water again, so it wasn't a necessary thing to know?


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 176 of 453 (521036)
08-25-2009 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Perdition
08-25-2009 1:40 PM


Re: An Observation
If Noah learned some special way of building boats, and his family was all that was left after the Flud, why didn't this knowledge survive? Did they decide it was a great method, but no one would ever need to sail on a big body of water again, so it wasn't a necessary thing to know?

No, no, no...you have it all wrong. They (Noah's family) figured if someone else were to need the knowlege of how to build this type of watercraft, god would provide them with said knowledge, just like he told Noah, negating Noah's need to spread the knowledge. He figured anyone following after him would justhave to figure it out on his own.

In the IT field, it's called "job security". Noah was the only one sacred enough to be privy to this newfangled way of shipbuilding.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6303
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 177 of 453 (521038)
08-25-2009 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by hooah212002
08-25-2009 1:56 PM


Re: An Observation
newfangled way of shipbuilding

And metallurgy, and engineered timber products, and adhesive technology, to name just a few things he evidently developed but neglected to pass on.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by hooah212002, posted 08-25-2009 1:56 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
Percy
Member
Posts: 18487
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 178 of 453 (521042)
08-25-2009 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by iano
08-25-2009 1:04 PM


Re: An Observation
iano writes:

I thought it'd be a bit of fun to dance a 'what's-eminently-feasible' dance.

It's how you decide "what's eminently feasible" that is most interesting. If in some post apocalyptic future you were one of a large group of people discussing how to preserve on a boat as much as possible of what was left of civilization with waters from global warming rising to wipe out surviving pockets of humanity, 450 foot long wooden boats would sound as ridiculous to you as they do to everyone else.

But if it's the ark of the Bible, then a 450 foot long wooden boat makes perfect sense to you.

Why is that?

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by iano, posted 08-25-2009 1:04 PM iano has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by iano, posted 08-25-2009 6:48 PM Percy has responded

    
iano
Member (Idle past 111 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 179 of 453 (521080)
08-25-2009 6:34 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Perdition
08-25-2009 1:40 PM


Re: An Observation
Perdition writes:

Rather than a "if it ain't been done then it's not doable" mentality, I thin it's more a long the lines of, "IF it was done once, why wouldn't they have continued doing so?"

If Noah learned some special way of building boats, and his family was all that was left after the Flud, why didn't this knowledge survive? Did they decide it was a great method, but no one would ever need to sail on a big body of water again, so it wasn't a necessary thing to know?

It wasn't a boat - it was a liferaft. And if boat it what was required then there are far better ways to make them than building a raft. The reason it wasn't done again was that there was no reason to do it again.

We're all agreed that a watertight hull filled with air costs less in material and provides more storage volume than a raft. Given that need that is what got built.

You got any technical objections to a big raft?

Edited by iano, : No reason given.

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6303
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 180 of 453 (521081)
08-25-2009 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by iano
08-25-2009 6:34 PM


Re: An Observation
Well I believe the original Hebrew is "tebah". According to Strongs that translates to "box". I can see a big boat called a box. But a life raft? This is a stretch, even for you.

I am sure others will have more comments on your life raft idea.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by iano, posted 08-25-2009 6:34 PM iano has responded

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