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Author | Topic: The Scientific Method For Beginners | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:A clear, concise description, except for one word of point 4. I assume you are trying to explain this to a non-scientist, but I think you have oversimplified it so much that it has become misleading. Here is how I would re-word point 4: "(4) If reality corresponds with the predictions of the hypothesis, then we are obliged to regard it as verified until and unless we find contrary evidence, at which point we would go back to step (1). Otherwise, we must accept it as a solid theory and can then use it to help us understand and interact with the world." We can build evidence to verify or validate a theory, but this only means that the theory has not been falsified. It has not (and never can be) proven. This is a crucial foundational concept in the philosophy of science. As wikipedia says about the scientific method, "Note that this method can never absolutely verify (prove the truth of) [a conjecture]. It can only falsify [a conjecture]."
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:This terminology is not restricted to Karl Popper. Every explanation of the scientific method that I've seen, except yours, is careful not to claim theories as proven. To most people, the word proven implies certain, absolute, unshakeable. But in science, every theory that we hold must be held somewhat tentatively. There is always the possibility that it may be disproved in the future. It is important for people to understand this, but your use of the word proven confuses it. Can you point to any well-known philosophers of science who use your terminology? Or any subfields of science where your terminology is standard? We certainly do not use the word proven this way in physics. I refer you to an excellent recent article in Physics Today, "What is Science?" by Helen Quinn. As Helen writes,
Scientific theories, even when generally accepted after much testing and refinement, are still never complete. Each can be safely applied in some limited domain, some range of situations or conditions for which it has been well tested. Each might also apply in some extended regime where it has yet to be tested, and has little or nothing to offer in still more distant domains. That is the sense in which no theory can be proven to be true; truth is too complete a notion. Edited by kbertsche, : No reason given. Edited by kbertsche, : added Helen Quinn reference and quote
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
You still have not answered my questions from Message 68:
Can you point to any well-known philosophers of science who use your terminology? Or any subfields of science where your terminology is standard?
I'm looking for some solid external support for your use of terminology. (What field of science are you active in or trained in, BTW?)
quote:We can never prove a scientific theory. This language is not restricted to Popperian philosophy; it is the standard terminology and a foundational principle in the physical sciences. Most physicists are careful not to use proof the way that you do in their writing, whether writing for the general public or for specialized journals. quote:I did read your post very carefully. What you propose is disingenuous. We would not "regard something as true" when it is really false. Likewise, we should not "regard something as proven" when it cannot, in fact, be proven. I again recommend Helen's article in Physics Today. She uses terminology correctly, yet explains it clearly enough for a layman to understand:
Scientific theories, even when generally accepted after much testing and refinement, are still never complete. Each can be safely applied in some limited domain, some range of situations or conditions for which it has been well tested. Each might also apply in some extended regime where it has yet to be tested, and has little or nothing to offer in still more distant domains. That is the sense in which no theory can be proven to be true; truth is too complete a notion.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
This is the third time I have asked:
Can you point to any well-known philosophers of science who use your terminology? Or any subfields of science where your terminology is standard?
If you can't, that's OK; simply admit it. And this is the second time I've asked:
What field of science are you active in or trained in, BTW?
By this question, I'm trying to understand your background to provide a context for your wording. (BTW, I am trained and working as a physicist.)
quote:Your are confusing categories. That you have two legs is an observational fact not a scientific theory. Most physicists would simply call this an observation or a fact, it would be unusual for them to use the word proven in this context. Getting back to scientific theories such as gravity, electromagnetism, standard model, Big Bang--I know of no physicist who would call these theories "proven," not even in colloquial speech. They would use words like "verified" or "validated."
quote:You are being intentionally and unnecessarily offensive. Am I to infer that you have run out of data or logic to support your claims, and are left to ad hominem? quote:I did not intend to offend or insult you personally, and I apologize that it came across that way. But perhaps you need to re-read my post. I labeled your proposal not you, as disingenuous. And I explained why: the proposal is tantamount to regarding something as true which is really false. Perhaps "disingenuous" was not the best choice of words. Maybe "deceptive" or "delusive" or "wrong" would be better, or some other adjective which captures the sense of "a proposal to regard something as true which is really false."
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Why such an antagonistic and derisive tone? I'm here to discuss and learn, not to argue. If you are here for the same reason and really are interested in answers to questions, please ask them respectfully. If you only want to argue and to insult, I have no interest in responding.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:I don't know of any physicist who would say that the theory of gravity is a fact. We often refer to data and observations as fact, e.g. the fact that an apple falls due to gravity. But not the theory itself. We believe the theory and stake our lives on it, but we do not call it a fact. quote:It is currently popular to say that evolution is "both a fact and a theory," apparently in response to YECs. Such language is not used in physics (e.g. of gravity) and I believe it confuses the issues.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:I understand what you mean, but no, we do not use language this way. (And we don't do so precisely because it confuses the concepts of fact and theory.) It is a fact that things fall, and there is a theory that explains this. quote:But the law of gravity is essentially synonymous with the theory of gravity. (Physics explains everything by mathematics, so theory and law become essentially the same. This may not be the case in other subfields of science.) We needed the 1/r^2 force law to get to the moon; i.e. we needed the theory of gravity. Though well-established and very accurate, we have no proof that this 1/r^2 force law is fully correct. A "fifth force" was suggested a few years ago to modify gravity, and I expect that this sort of speculation will come back (if it hasn't already) as a possible way to explain dark energy.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:We (physicists) do not call gravity a fact, but a theory or law. I believe this is true of most physicists, especially those who write on what science is and how it is done. I'm sure you can find some who use terms differently, but they are not the norm. quote:We generally would not use the phrase "facts of gravity" because it implies that gravity is a "fact." quote:In a sense, all of science is descriptive. It attempts to describe things at lower, more fundamental levels, which we call "explaining", but this is still fundamentally descriptive. We (physicists) do call the inverse square law a theory; it is Newton's theory or law of gravity. (Note the use of both "law" and "theory" in this wiki article.)
quote:Again, I think I understand what you mean, but "fact of gravity" is non-standard language in physics. It is more normal to say that "there are facts which are described or explained by gravity." quote:Good question. We (physicists) generally view gravity as the theory or law itself, not as the results of or support for the theory or law. It would be like saying "there is a fact of the standard model" or "there is a fact of the Big Bang." No--this is bad terminology. It implies that the theory or law is itself a fact, which is wrong. quote:Yes, I believe we agree on the main concepts. The major disagreement is terminology.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:It seems that the word "theory" is used in at least two ways in science: 1) The word "theory" is sometimes used interchangeably with "law", as in Newton's law or Newton's theory. In this sense, a law is essentially a theory which has been extremely well established. I was using the term in this way earlier in the thread, and it is easy to find examples of this usage in physics. (Maybe it's less common in other fields of science?) 2) The word "theory" is sometimes used in a more over-arching sense, as you suggest. (The wiki article on "scientific theory" claims that this is the only usage, and that my usage is wrong. But I believe they overstate their case.)
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Maybe you're right; perhaps my usage of "law" was/is too sloppy. Maybe it's better to view a "law" as a subset or a consequence of a theory?
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:But laws (e.g. Newton's and Kepler's laws) are not simply embodiments of observation. Their development required generalization beyond the actual observations; they required theory at some level, and are in some sense consequences of theory.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Yes, it seems like a good explanation. I agree with it. But note that it also validates the way I have been using the terms:
quote:
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:In normal scientific usage, there seems to be a broad range of things labeled "theory" and things labeled "law", with some overlap between them. A theory can be very narrow, such as the theory that a meteorite killed the dinosaurs. Or it can be very broad, such as electromagnetic theory. Likewise, a law can be narrow, such as Ohm's Law. Or it can be very broad, such as Maxwell's Equations , a set of laws which govern all of electromagnetism. Interestingly, we don't usually call the full set of Maxwell's Equations either a "theory" or a "law." Maxwell originally presented them as a part of his "theory" of electromagnetism, but the individual equations can be reduced to "laws" of electromagnetism such as Gauss' Law, Faraday's Law, and Ampere's Law.
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:In my experience, there is a fairly uniform, well-accepted understanding of distinctions between "fact" and "theory", and this sort of thing is frequently mentioned in casual conversation, colloquia, and popular-level writing by leading scientists. (E.g. see the article by Helen Quinn referenced earlier in this thread.) quote:I don't have any numeric data, such as polls or surveys. We could find examples of usage by leading scientists, many of whom have written books to explain science to the general public (e.g. Richard Feynmann, Victor Weisskopf, Freeman Dyson, and many, many others).
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kbertsche Member (Idle past 2154 days) Posts: 1427 From: San Jose, CA, USA Joined: |
quote:Yes, and I think this far-reaching force is what people generally mean when they speak of the "theory of gravity." The "theory of gravity" does explain some things, such as celestial and orbital dynamics, Kepler's Laws, etc. True, it doesn't explain why gravity happens. But suppose we can find and measure the graviton--does this really explain gravity? It fills in our understanding, and gives us a more fundamental, unified understanding. But does it really explain why gravity happens? Is invoking an exchange of virtual gravitons really any better of a why than invoking a gravitational field described by an inverse square law? Perhaps gravity is a misleading example for us to use, since it is common in physics to speak of both the "theory" and "law" of gravity. Maybe an example like the Big Bang theory would be less confusing, since we don't speak of a big Bang "law".
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