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Author Topic:   If you were God, what kind of God would you be?
John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2995 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 136 of 247 (521260)
08-26-2009 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Dr Adequate
08-26-2009 2:19 PM


Isa 45:5-7 (NAS)
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; that men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun that there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these."
Psa 18:24-27 (NAS)
Therefore the LORD has recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in His eyes. With the kind You show Yourself kind; with the blameless You show Yourself blameless; with the pure You show Yourself pure, and with the crooked You show Yourself astute. For You save an afflicted people, but haughty eyes You abase..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-26-2009 2:19 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by lyx2no, posted 08-26-2009 7:51 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4716 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 137 of 247 (521288)
08-26-2009 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by John 10:10
08-26-2009 4:40 PM


Nothing to Say for Yourself or Suzy
Pretty good stuff there, John 10:10. Did you write that yourself, or did you read it somewhere?

It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
Anon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by John 10:10, posted 08-26-2009 4:40 PM John 10:10 has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 138 of 247 (521363)
08-27-2009 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by Granny Magda
08-25-2009 8:39 AM


Re: A Lie of Omission
Granny Magda writes:
God had a death penalty for some rapes. In other cases, the "penalty" was to marry the victim. Hardly an appropriate response to a "vile act".
You may not realize that only girls who were virgins were considered for marriage by Isrealite men. In the case of a girl being raped by either someone she knew or a stranger, then that girl would be given a life sentence.
The fact is that in this case it is the man who is given the life sentence because not only must he marry her and under no circumstances divorce her all his life, he must also make a large payment to her father. If the man had little money this would likely turn him into a slave until the amount was paid. He may have committed a vile act, but he had to spend the rest of his life making it up to her.
So the greater punishment fell on the man. The girl was spared the humiliation of being an outcast in her community and the father was paid compensation for the loss of his daughter.
Im not saying this is something we would practice in our society, but in their society it was a necessary evil for it protected the girl from further humiliation and harm and made the man responsible for his actions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by Granny Magda, posted 08-25-2009 8:39 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-27-2009 10:44 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 155 by Granny Magda, posted 08-28-2009 10:19 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 139 of 247 (521366)
08-27-2009 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 128 by Dr Adequate
08-25-2009 5:11 PM


Dr/adeqyate writes:
that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband
this one has been done to death and i really dont want to go over it again....but I will just point out that the woman was given time to mourn the loss of the family, she was provided food and shelter and clothing, and right at the outset the stipulation was that the solder was to make her his wife
this wasnt about violence and sexual gratification
it was about becoming a husband to the captive woman...and once they became man and wife, then she was entitled to all the rights of law as any other isrealite woman.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-25-2009 5:11 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-27-2009 10:06 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 140 of 247 (521367)
08-27-2009 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by LinearAq
08-25-2009 2:35 PM


Re: Death penalty for Rape....or something else?
the expressed view in Deut is that
"do nothing to the girl, she did nothing wrong. This is similar to the case of a man who comes across his neighbor out in the country and murders him"
Men will never understand how a woman feels when she has been raped, but it seems that God did understand. he likened rape to murder. I dont know if anyone else puts murder and rape into the same category, but i know our legal system certainly does not.
I believe that most societies, including the west, had no laws against marital rape because it was quite legal to do. Its only been in more recent years that marital rape has been considered a illegal.
So you argument that God does not show love for women is not quite right.
I agree with you that many of those verses show that the husband/father was being considered, but why shouldnt they be? If your fiance is raped, why shouldnt your rights be viewed as violated? For all intentes and purposes, they have been. The womans husband has been violated because the man and his wife are 'one flesh'
its like saying if you hit my child, you hit me....besides, im sure that if your wife/gf/daughter is raped, you would feel a degree of pain and violation just as she does.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by LinearAq, posted 08-25-2009 2:35 PM LinearAq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by LinearAq, posted 08-27-2009 10:02 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 141 of 247 (521371)
08-27-2009 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Blue Jay
08-26-2009 11:21 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
bluejay writes:
It's not exactly rape in the the most technical sense of the word, but distinguishing this from rape takes a lot of unscrupulous hair-splitting.
well that account doesnt say anything about rape in the sense of the word that we are speaking of
they made the women into their wives
women in those times were subjected to men, they never had a choice with whom they married so if someone chose to make a woman his wife, she accepted that...it seems to be the culture. Some middle eastern cultures are still like that today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Blue Jay, posted 08-26-2009 11:21 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-27-2009 10:21 AM Peg has replied
 Message 147 by Blue Jay, posted 08-27-2009 10:46 AM Peg has replied
 Message 148 by Drosophilla, posted 08-27-2009 6:10 PM Peg has replied
 Message 149 by Admin, posted 08-28-2009 7:12 AM Peg has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22389
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 142 of 247 (521380)
08-27-2009 9:44 AM


Peg's Position on Forced Marriage and Rape
After reading Peg's previous four posts, it appears she believes that being forced into a lifetime of unwilling sexual relations with your rapist and/or conqueror and murderer of your husband is not rape.
--Percy

  
LinearAq
Member (Idle past 4675 days)
Posts: 598
From: Pocomoke City, MD
Joined: 11-03-2004


Message 143 of 247 (521388)
08-27-2009 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Peg
08-27-2009 8:21 AM


Re: Death penalty for Rape....or something else?
Peg writes:
I agree with you that many of those verses show that the husband/father was being considered, but why shouldnt they be? If your fiance is raped, why shouldnt your rights be viewed as violated? For all intentes and purposes, they have been. The womans husband has been violated because the man and his wife are 'one flesh'
Those verses don't just show the husband and father were being considered. They show that the husband and father were the only ones being considered.
Men will never understand how a woman feels when she has been raped, but it seems that God did understand. he likened rape to murder. I dont know if anyone else puts murder and rape into the same category, but i know our legal system certainly does not.
As opposed to the legal system that requires the woman to marry her rapist. Maybe the U.S. should align its Constitution more with the Biblical laws (as per Mike Huckabee's desires). It certainly would make it easier to get a wife....better make sure she's not engaged first!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Peg, posted 08-27-2009 8:21 AM Peg has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 144 of 247 (521390)
08-27-2009 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Peg
08-27-2009 8:10 AM


this wasnt about violence and sexual gratification
Well, no. Apart from the fact that the rapist in question killed the woman's parents, forcibly took her prisoner, chose her as a sex slave because she made him horny, and then raped her for the rest of her life or until he got bored with her, it's not about violence and sexual gratification at all. Why, they hardly even come into it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Peg, posted 08-27-2009 8:10 AM Peg has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 145 of 247 (521393)
08-27-2009 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Peg
08-27-2009 8:46 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
women in those times were subjected to men, they never had a choice with whom they married so if someone chose to make a woman his wife, she accepted that...
And you know this by reading her mind, or by making stuff up?
it seems to be the culture.
And yet supposedly the laws that defined their culture came from God. All that stuff about not eating shrimps, and how you should rape prisoners of war, and how to sell your daughter as a sex-slave, and how most of God's favorite guys were polygamists, and how you should stone people to death for picking up sticks on Saturday --- if we believe the Bible, it wasn't just "the culture", it was God's own culture that he created for them.
It's no good getting all cultural relativist on us if you also wish us to believe that their culture was the result of following the God-given laws of a perfect deity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Peg, posted 08-27-2009 8:46 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 150 by Peg, posted 08-28-2009 8:44 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 146 of 247 (521397)
08-27-2009 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by Peg
08-27-2009 8:00 AM


Should I Rape Suzy? Part ... Uh ... I Forget
The fact is that in this case it is the man who is given the life sentence because not only must he marry her and under no circumstances divorce her all his life, he must also make a large payment to her father.
Ah, I see what you're saying. So if I just want a quick ten minutes with Suzy, it would probably be a bad idea for me to rape her. But if I want my rape victim to be shackled to me for the rest of my life, so that I can violate her again and again, then raping her would be a really smart move --- so long as I have enough money to pay off her father.
Well, it so happens that I don't just want to fuck Suzy one time --- I should like to turn her whole life into a permanent living hell where she is forced into marriage with me, her rapist. And I am extremely rich. So, thanks for your advice. I'll rape Suzy.
Oh, wait ... I believe that I see the catch. This would only work if we lived according to God's law. But unfortunately I live under the atheistic secular human-made laws of the state of Nevada, under which they'd lock me up for ten years or so for being a rapist and Suzy wouldn't have to marry me at all, no matter how rich I am.
A curse upon this heathen nation! If I want to marry Suzy, I should be able to stake my claim on her by sticking my cock into her, like God said.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Peg, posted 08-27-2009 8:00 AM Peg has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 147 of 247 (521398)
08-27-2009 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Peg
08-27-2009 8:46 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
Hi, Peg.
Peg writes:
well that account doesnt say anything about rape in the sense of the word that we are speaking of
they made the women into their wives
women in those times were subjected to men, they never had a choice with whom they married so if someone chose to make a woman his wife, she accepted that...it seems to be the culture. Some middle eastern cultures are still like that today.
Please distinguish this in principle from actual rape.
Rather than force a woman to have sex with you... you force her to marry you so you can perpetuate your tribe.
What is the difference? A cultural technicality?
I do not believe God condoned this act, nor does the Bible say that He did: these were people who were trying to follow God, but goofed up badly. Either somebody misinterpreted what they were told to do by God, or somebody was lying about it being God's will from the beginning.
But, if God really did condone this stuff, I want no part in His work, nor would I seek to emulate Him if and when I ever have the chance to be a god myself.
Edited by Bluejay, : Minor addition.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Peg, posted 08-27-2009 8:46 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Peg, posted 08-28-2009 9:56 AM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 148 of 247 (521541)
08-27-2009 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Peg
08-27-2009 8:46 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
Dr Adequate quote:
Oh, wait ... I believe that I see the catch. This would only work if we lived according to God's law. But unfortunately I live under the atheistic secular human-made laws of the state of Nevada, under which they'd lock me up for ten years or so for being a rapist and Suzy wouldn't have to marry me at all, no matter how rich I am.
A curse upon this heathen nation! If I want to marry Suzy, I should be able to stake my claim on her by sticking my cock into her, like God said.
Ah...but you don't need to go to the trouble of marying Suzy Dr. A.
From Judges 19:24 (where a man defends a male visitor to his home who is about to be gang raped by the mob!)
"Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not do so vile a thing"
The unhappy endidng for the concubine is that she was gang-raped and was dead by morning whereupon her 'lord' cut her up into 12 pieces and sent them into the coasts of Israel.
So forced gang rape, murder then multilation of the body - Peg if you have read passages such as the above - how on earth with any sanity at all can you justify this mindless book you call a bible? Any woman reading the above should shiver at that phrase 'humble ye them'...I can't think of a more sinister phrase in any literature anywhere! If you are really holding up the bible as a source of morality it surely can only mean one of the following:
1) You have read so little of the text that you have never come across descriptions like the quoted passage (the bible is full of such abominations).
2) You have read some or all of these passages but are unable to understand the context in which it is used (you do understand what the biblical phrase 'to know a woman' refers to don't you?)
3) You understand and actually approve of the text - in which case you have absolutely no moral compass at all in our 21st century - perhaps you'd rather be in the middle east 2000 years ago!
Sorry if I sound so harsh but if you can't see what Dr. A has been driving at re Suzy there really is no hope for you....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Peg, posted 08-27-2009 8:46 AM Peg has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Peg, posted 08-28-2009 10:10 AM Drosophilla has replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 149 of 247 (521591)
08-28-2009 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by Peg
08-27-2009 8:46 AM


Peg, how are you holding up?
Hi Peg,
Some of the responses to you could be interpreted as purposefully offensive, and it would be reasonable to make a moderator request that responses not be sexually explicit, but only if it matters to you. Please let me know by responding here.
To everyone else,
Some here are, in effect, turning up the volume because it feels like Peg has her head buried in the sand and isn't listening, but please keep things within reasonable bounds. Thanks.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Peg, posted 08-27-2009 8:46 AM Peg has replied

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 Message 156 by Peg, posted 08-28-2009 10:23 AM Admin has seen this message but not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4929 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 150 of 247 (521605)
08-28-2009 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 145 by Dr Adequate
08-27-2009 10:21 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
DrAdequate writes:
And you know this by reading her mind, or by making stuff up?
no, i know this because it is still a part of many cultures today. Africa, south asia and in some areas of the middle east for instance.
DrAdequate writes:
And yet supposedly the laws that defined their culture came from God. It's no good getting all cultural relativist on us if you also wish us to believe that their culture was the result of following the God-given laws of a perfect deity.
wrong again on that count. the hebrews already had an established culture before God gave them his laws. The various cultures of mankind are the creation of their own...its called 'independence'
if you want to know what culture God would give humans, look at Christianity because that is the culture of God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-27-2009 10:21 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by Huntard, posted 08-28-2009 8:52 AM Peg has replied

  
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