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Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 222 of 687 (521731)
08-28-2009 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by greyseal
08-28-2009 4:55 PM


Re: Information please
Hi greyseal,
greyseal writes:
No, I am not agreeing it's a concept of the mind, I am saying it is a property of reality, specifically this reality that we both apparently live in. Time passes, space is. Whether I believe in it or not, it is. Whether I live or not, they are. If there were no minds to observe, reason and contemplate, they would still be.
I prefer time exists.
The universe exists.
Space exists.
The earth exists. Whether there is life on it or not.
All of that equals eternal existence.
But time as you and I know it also exists.
This time is what man figured out to use to measure intervals and duration, some 5,000 years ago.
Man is the only creature that carries a watch or is concerned with time.
The time as you and I know it will cease to exist.
The eternal existence will never cease to exist.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by greyseal, posted 08-28-2009 4:55 PM greyseal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Perdition, posted 08-28-2009 6:14 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 235 by greyseal, posted 08-29-2009 2:44 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 224 of 687 (521741)
08-28-2009 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Perdition
08-28-2009 6:05 PM


Re: Information please
Hi Perdition,
Perdition writes:
If something was in one state at one moment, and in a different state at another, then time is measure of it's changing from one state to another over a span, rather than simultaneously being in both states.
Time is the interval between the object changing. What determines the duration of that interval? Time, Then what determines time?
Perdition writes:
If something exists, it exists from one moment to another, time is the measure of it's duration from the beginning of its existence to the end.
You go to a baseball game.
The umpire says play ball.
You look at the scoreboard clock it says 1:00 PM.
The game fly's by as nobody is scoring any runs.
At 3:21 the final out is made and the game is over Yankees 1 Boston 0
The interval between play ball and the final out was 2 hours and 21 minutes.
Now the game lasted 2 hours and 21 minutes in duration but how do you determine the game lasted 2 hours and 21 minutes?
You say the scoreboard clock. Fine.
What determines how the scoreboard clock can measure the duration of the game.
Perdition writes:
Not quite. Time began to exist exactly when the universe began to exist. They went hand in hand.
So let's see, Now you got a universe that can not exist without time, and you got time that can not exist with a universe. We are back to circular reasoning.
Perdition writes:
Eternity is a span of time, now is an instant, there is no span. SO what you're saying is a timeless span of time,
The message I am answering was posted at 6:05. I assume at that time you would have considered that time as now.
It is now, 6:44 by my watch. I consider that now. When you get and read this message I will still be living in now. When you read this message you will still be living in the now.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Perdition, posted 08-28-2009 6:05 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by Perdition, posted 08-31-2009 3:05 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 225 of 687 (521744)
08-28-2009 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Perdition
08-28-2009 6:14 PM


Re: Information please
Hi Perdition,
Perdition writes:
All of that equals current existence. It doesn't say anything about past or future.
My eternal now.
I had about forgot about what I started this thread for.
The universe exists.
Did the universe begin to exist or is it infinite in all directions?
If the universe began to exist it has a reason to exist.
If the universe began to exist, why didn't it begin to exist earlier?
What say ye?
Is the universe infinite in all directions?
OR
Did the universe begin to exist?
Perdition writes:
That's a tautology, but you have to show that an eternal existence exists first for it to be relevant to anything in the rela world.
Is it still a tautology when science says the universe is infinite into the future?
Since the universe exists science posits that there is an eternal existence, as it is infinite into the future.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Perdition, posted 08-28-2009 6:14 PM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by Perdition, posted 08-31-2009 3:14 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 226 of 687 (521746)
08-28-2009 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by cavediver
08-28-2009 6:04 PM


Re: Information please
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes:
Can you honestly read this and not see the gaping hole in your understanding? How can you say "time did not exist until after the universe began to exist." What does the word "after" mean in this context?
What does my understand have to do with what my position is?
My position is that you got to have both for the universe to exist.
I think you would agree with that.
Now the sticky part. The universe can't exist without time. Time can't exist with the universe.
You tell me how both can begin to exist without Metaphysics being brought into play.
I have continually ask in this thread for the scientific evidence of facts that prove how the universe began to exist.
None has been presented so far.
If your answer is still "We don't know" I can accept that.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by cavediver, posted 08-28-2009 6:04 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by cavediver, posted 08-29-2009 6:19 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 231 of 687 (521754)
08-28-2009 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Sasuke
08-28-2009 8:50 PM


Re: Information please
Hi Sasuke,
Sasuke writes:
If you are an old man you should be well aware of the affect of time/
At 70 I am well aware of the effects of the passing of time.
But I have never experienced time.
I can only experience now.
If I fall asleep it is now. When I wake up it is now. For some reason it is always now.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Sasuke, posted 08-28-2009 8:50 PM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by Sasuke, posted 08-28-2009 9:11 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 233 of 687 (521761)
08-28-2009 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 232 by Sasuke
08-28-2009 9:11 PM


Re: Information please
Hi Sasuke,
Sasuke writes:
however your memories of your wife, your kids, lost loved ones, and so on should def remind you of change, entropy, death, all properties of this symbolic meaning "time".
Well all I have to do to remember my wife of 52 years is get up and walk about 20'.
But really all those things you talk about is the effects of passing time, which is a lot of now's, or should I just say existence, as that is what it is.
ABE No thrilled to exist.
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : answer missed question

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Sasuke, posted 08-28-2009 9:11 PM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by Sasuke, posted 08-28-2009 9:46 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 240 of 687 (521807)
08-29-2009 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by cavediver
08-29-2009 6:19 AM


Re: Information please
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes:
I don't know how many times I have to say this, but even if the Universe is only finitely extendable into the past, it still never "began" to exist.
You don't have to convince me the universe never began to exist.
You have been totally flustrated trying to convince me it can be finite into the past and not begin to exist from 'no thing'.
I have from 10 years old believed the universe has always existed in some form. I think that was one of the first statements I posted on this web site and have posted hundreds of times.
cavediver writes:
You are fixated on arguing against this strawman notion of having nothing then having something.
That strawman as you call it is the Standard Big Bang Theory. It requires the universe have a beginning. That is the reason Christianity accepted the BBT when it was put forth.
cavediver writes:
There has never been nothing, there has always been something, even if that something is only finitely extendable into the past.
"There has never been nothing". You did not say time when there was nothing.
Then you say: "if that something is only finitely extendable into the past."
Now that don't make sense as the latter contradicts the former statement.
cavediver writes:
The universe can't exist without time.
Well, I wouldn't agrre with that, but I guess I can agree to the sentiment for the purposes of this thread.
So go along to get along. Don't rock the boat you might get a little water in the boat.
All the universe has to have to exist is existence.
That existence has to extend infinitely in all directions.
If it does not then it had to begin to exist.
If it began to exist it had to have a cause to exist.
If it did not have a cause to exist then it began to exist from 'no thing'. Which you say is impossible and I agree.
cavediver writes:
I have continually ask in this thread for the scientific evidence of facts that prove how the universe began to exist.
Well, given that the Universe never began to exist, you'll be waiting a while.
The truth of the matter is the evidence does not exist as you pointed out.
It never will exist.
I knew that before I started the thread. But there are so many here that are willing to spout their belief of their evidence that has proved the Genesis 1:1 account of creation to be false I thought I would give them a place to present said evidence.
As you can see none has been presented.
cavediver writes:
T=0 is a point where the Universe changed form, grew out of some background, was born out of some collision within higher dimensional space,
Now we move into metaphysics which levels the playing field.
I would like to read your thoughts on those things if you ever decide to come out of the closet. (closet pre-Big Bang believer)
I was reading some of the old discussions last night where you said we need a theory to replace the BBT. Also where you said when talking about the BBT you just slide right on by it into the Hartley/Hawking no boundary universe.
So, how about it care to share.
If doing so would cause irreparable harm just give me three laughs in front of idiot and I will understand.
I would like and explanation how you can say:
"T=0 is a point where the Universe changed form, grew out of some background, was born out of some collision within higher dimensional space,"
or
"is just possibly a finite limit to existence in that direction".
Without believing 'some thing' can come from 'no thing', as that is the only possibility. There is no other alternative. Or Is there?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by cavediver, posted 08-29-2009 6:19 AM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by cavediver, posted 08-30-2009 6:57 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 241 of 687 (521812)
08-29-2009 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by Sasuke
08-28-2009 9:46 PM


Re: Information please
Hi Sasuke,
Sasuke writes:
How is passing existence in the now? why has your body changed? how are you 70?
The interval from 1939 until 2009 as measured by time based on the rotation of the earth taking 24 hours to complete a revolution and the earth taking 365 1/4 days to circle the sun constituting 1 year means that the interval was 70 years.
Now if man was to decide wait a minute there is 12 hours in a day and 12 hours in a night and there is 365 1/4 12 hour periods in a year. You then would have the interval that would mean I am 140 years old.
Man could decide it takes 365 1/4 mornings and evenings for the earth to circle the sun which equals one day. Then I would be 70 days old.
Man's concept of time determines the unit of measure, and is only relative to man.
Time is a concept of man which he uses to try to explain existence in an eternal existence.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by Sasuke, posted 08-28-2009 9:46 PM Sasuke has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by Straggler, posted 08-29-2009 3:38 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 242 of 687 (521813)
08-29-2009 11:08 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by lyx2no
08-29-2009 9:05 AM


Re: Information please
Hi lyx2no,
{rhetoric} So, you don't experience time, ey? Then if I say wait a minute I can instantly pop out or wait 17 years and you'd not notice any difference? I somehow doubt the sincerity of your position; have you thought it out at all? {/rhetoric}
I would experience the interval but I would not experience time.
lyx2no writes:
Don't feed your dog on time and an see if he doesn't experience time.
I didn't know Jim Dandy made time and put it in a bag for my dog to eat. I thought it was dog food.
The dog would experience hunger.
lyx2no writes:
If you haven't noticed you're also always "here". Have you not experienced space either?
But space is physical.
Are you saying time is physical. If it is what is it made of?
God Bless,
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Fix first quote box. Oddly enough, the [rhetoric] pseudocode was throwing things of, so I changed the "" to "{}".

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by lyx2no, posted 08-29-2009 9:05 AM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by lyx2no, posted 08-29-2009 12:30 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 248 of 687 (521863)
08-29-2009 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by lyx2no
08-29-2009 12:30 PM


Re: Lost in Time.
Hi lyx2no,
lyx2no writes:
Is length a physical thing?".
Physical things have length.
But I am not convinced length itself is physical. What is it made of?
lyx2no writes:
Time and space are both equally physical.
Is time made of waves or particles?
Is space made of waves or particles?
lyx2no writes:
13.7 billion years ago, as we reckon time, the right combination of fields began to interact to form the Universe we live in.
Did those fields begin to exist or were they infinite in all directions?
Where did these fields exist?
Why did they begin to interact 13/7 billion years ago rather than 27.3 billion years ago?
lyx2no writes:
How do I test these things. Nobel first,
If I don't run out of existence first I will look for the announcment.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by lyx2no, posted 08-29-2009 12:30 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by lyx2no, posted 08-29-2009 8:00 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 271 by Perdition, posted 08-31-2009 3:24 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 250 of 687 (521868)
08-29-2009 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Straggler
08-29-2009 3:38 PM


Re: Information please
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Is gravity physical? What is gravity "made of"?
Is gravity physical? Truth is nobody knows.
There are those who think it is made of gravitons, which would make it physical.
But in my opinion it is not physical. I can't smell it, taste it, see it, hear it, or experience it.
I can see the results of it. I can feel the results of it. I can hear the results of it, and I can experience the results of it.
What is gravity?
The effect one body of mass has upon another body of mass.
What is gravity made of?
No one knows.
Since it is not physical it must be something man constructed.
So the word gravity was introduced by man to describe the effect one body of mass has on another body of mass.
Straggler writes:
OK. If there was no man, if there was no Sun, if there was no Earth orbiting the Sun - Would other components of the universe still move, change etc. etc.
If there was no observer there would only be eternal existence.
Would things change?
In my opinion they would exist as they have existed for eternity past eternally into the future.
Now would you like to answer my questions?
Is time physical?
If yes.
Is it made of particles or waves?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Straggler, posted 08-29-2009 3:38 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 254 by Straggler, posted 08-30-2009 7:13 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 251 of 687 (521870)
08-29-2009 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by lyx2no
08-29-2009 8:00 PM


Re: Lost in Time.
Hi lyx2no,
lyx2no writes:
Then why have you not ragged on about length as you have time? You say you haven't experienced time. Have you experienced length? Why do you have a problem with one but not the other?
What does length have to do with 'some thing' beginning to exist?
Time is said to be an integral part of what happened at T=0 and very shortly thereafter.
lyx2no writes:
Fields.
What are those fields made of?
I notice you did not answer my two questions about those fields that you say interacted 13.7 billion years ago resulting in this universe.
ICANT writes:
Did those fields begin to exist or were they infinite in all directions?
Where did these fields exist?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by lyx2no, posted 08-29-2009 8:00 PM lyx2no has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by lyx2no, posted 08-29-2009 10:00 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 256 of 687 (521966)
08-31-2009 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Minnemooseus
08-30-2009 11:56 AM


Re: The 1 sentence summary of the topic title question?
Hi Moose,
Moose writes:
Your entire EvC campaign for years has been based on your objection to the universe having an uncaused "beginning" on the basis of such a thing never having been observed.
Here I said:
ICANT writes:
My personal opinion is that the universe has always existed eternally in some form.
I have maintained this position for 60 years. That would cover my existence here at EvC.
That position requires an uncaused universe to be in existence today.
So why would I argue against my own position.
I have argued and continue to argue that and uncaused beginning to exist can not take place.
If something begins to exist that means it did not exist before beginning to exist.
For that to happen 'some thing' must come from 'no thing'.
I got no problem with someone who puts forth any of the exotic possibilities for the universe beginning to exist.
Moose writes:
The prominent exception is that ICANT does seem to subscribe to a literal Noahtic flood somewhere in the past 5000 years.
What's that got to do with my position on creation?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Minnemooseus, posted 08-30-2009 11:56 AM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by Straggler, posted 08-31-2009 5:41 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 315 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-03-2009 8:33 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 258 of 687 (521994)
08-31-2009 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Straggler
08-31-2009 5:41 AM


Re: The 1 sentence summary of the topic title question?
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
You agree that neither "eternal infinity" nor "something from nothing" are observed phenomenon (again I use your terms and your definitions). So on what basis are you claiming that one is superior to the other? You have no basis other than personal incredulity.
Don't flatter me by trying to convince me my argument is my personal unique idea when Aristotle was the earliest I can find that held that something can not come from nothing. Therefore the universe had to be eternal.
Is the universe eternal, infinite in all directions?
OR
Did the universe begin to exist?
Can something come from nothing?
You said time was physical so, What is time made of?
Straggler writes:
Yet on the basis of this personal incredulity alone you go on to deny the observed expansion of the universe,
Actually on the authority of the Bible I declared and announced that God had cause the expansion of the universe by streaching it out. Stating that the Bible declared that over 2700 years ago.
Straggler writes:
you deny the validity of specific measurable prediction regarding the Cosmic Microwave Background,
Here You will find a discussion three proposals for the CMBR.
There are others but they are much younger, after the fact.
You will find the predictions of the group using BBT did not do a good job of predicting the temperature that would be found.
So no it is not me denying the measurements but fellows a lot smarter than me. Now you may know more than they do.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Straggler, posted 08-31-2009 5:41 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 259 by Straggler, posted 08-31-2009 11:37 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 261 by greyseal, posted 08-31-2009 11:40 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 260 of 687 (522006)
08-31-2009 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by cavediver
08-30-2009 6:57 AM


Re: Information please
Hi cavediver,
cavediver writes:
You haven't a 1% grasp on what we're talking about,
In the message this response was to I quoted you as saying:
quote:
There has never been nothing, there has always been something, even if that something is only finitely extendable into the past.
Explain how something that is finite. Has not always existed:
(When you said always you did not qualify always. Was that a slip?)
Can exist.
Without beginning to exist.
That should bring me up to 1.25%. If not it would help a lot.
cavediver writes:
And what sort of divine inspiration is required to come up with "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"??
You will have to ask Moses that question.
cavediver writes:
And you think this is some incredible revelation that is born out by science.
Well no.
I think it is an incredible revelation that science was born out of.
There are those trying to prove it happened like Moses said. And others trying to prove it happened some other way.
Look at all the benefits that resulted in-between.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by cavediver, posted 08-30-2009 6:57 AM cavediver has not replied

  
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