ICANT'S position in the creation debate

Perhaps all you need to understand this is a simpler example.You are sitting on the beach and you have 2 clocks that are set to the exact same time and are very accurate.If you leave both clocks on the beach, even for a very long time, they will never get out of sync.Now, you leave one clock on the beach and you take the other one with you on a climb to the top of Mt Everest and leave it there.Now the only thing that has changed is the elevation of the two clocks and, predictably, the clock you left on Everest will start to drift from the clock you left on the beach. It will be running slightly faster.You can repeat this experiment a number of times with a number of clocks and it will always turn out the same. In fact, the difference in the elevation between the two clocks influences just how fast they will drift. If you launch that clock which was on Mt. Everest into space, it will drift faster than it did on Mt. Everest.This is verification of relativity which states that mass influences space and time. In this clock example, it is the mass of the earth that is doing the influencing.If you can influence time with matter, time is therefore a property of the universe.Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

Hi Straggler, Wouldn't that make time absolute and not relative to anything?Is there a definition of time that says it is anything other than the measurement of duration anywhere?There is metaphysics that proposes that there is a time dimension but metaphysics is not science.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Jazzns, Great example.But you have not influenced time.The duration is the same on the beach and on the mountain or in the satellite.All you have influenced is the man made instrument that is supposed to be marking time.That influence is caused by what is called gravity. How one body of mass affects another body of mass.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

And the idiocy continues

'round and 'round we go......

But, ICANT, those calculations do not work because space time itself is twisted by the motion and position of the satellites. They only work if both general and special relativity are included to account for that.

Oh really? What particle makes up duration...what wave makes up duration? Don't tell me atoms and such, for those make up matter which have duration, but they aren't themselves duration.So, what are the particles/waves that make up duration and where were they discovered? The numbers are products of the human mind and are used to quantify and examine the length. Length and numbers are not the same thing...equivocation and conflation, that seems to be all you do.So, God is a product of the human mind, since words are products of the human mind, and the word God was made up by human minds, therefore God does not exist...thanks for the ICANT proof of God's nonexistence.

Hi Ned, Atomic clocks on all the orbiting GPS satellites initiate a precisely simultaneous series of data transmissions.The signals from three or four of these satellites arrive at a GPS receiver at slightly different times, depending on the distance the signal traveled from each satellite.The GPS receiver must know the exact time the data left the satellite in order to measure the time delay of each satellite's signal. This information comes from the three satellites delayed signal.The receiver has firmware that tells it where each satellite is at any instant. This enables the receiver to adjust for the delay and determine when the signal left the satellite.Once this is done the receiver sets its internal clock until it matches the data received from the satellites. When this is accomplished its internal clock is set to near-perfect agreement with the atomic clocks aboard the satellites.Once that is accomplished and you have a special GPS unit mounted on a D7 bulldozer the computer can then adjust the blade with no lag time and with an accuracy of a few centimeters to cut a grade.I know this by experience, as I have operated such a machine. It is amazing technology. And very expensive.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Perdition, The definition of duration is existence.Existence is all those little atoms and waves.Without those little atoms and waves there is no existence.With no existence there is no duration as we call it to measure. You are welcome to believe that if you so desire.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

So you are saying this is wrong, and SR and GR have no part to play in GPS?

Hi ICANT Please, please, please try to understand what we are trying to say. The actual time that has passed for the clock on Everest is different than that that passed for the one that is at a lower elevation. This is because gravity, as a product of matter, has influenced space-time. If you can, please take a look at the speed of light in relationship to time- I'm sure you will find out a lot and hopefully bring something to the discussion. Not so. Existence and duration are the same thing. This is what we call space-time. And just because we measure it does not mean that it does not exist independent of our measurements. For example, if I look at a forest and say there are 200 trees (whether right or wrong) does that mean that there would not be 200 trees if I was not there to count?When it comes down to it, science and mathematics are just properties of the universe that we have discovered, not created. If we had created, them, then why do we still not know more/everything? Do you think that science and mathematics exist regardless of being measured or observed? It's the "If a tree falls in a forest" argument. Please answer with a straightforward and clear answer. If you do not or cannot, then the continuation of this thread is a waste of time.Edited by Teapots&unicorns, : No reason given.

No we have not influenced the instrument in the way I think you are trying to say. It should be as assumption that the clock operates exactly the same in any gravity.And it is perhaps the simplicity of the example that does not make the point but fundamentally you are demonstrating in this experiment that time is in fact a variable and not a constant.The deep point to understand why this is true for this example is to recognize that the implication of this type of experiment is that ther is no "privledged frame of reference" with respect to time. That is what relativity means. Time is relative. There is no place in the universe where you could stand with your clock to get "THE" time.

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If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

But particles and waves have existence and duration as well. SO, if duration is made of particles and waves that have duration, which is also made of particles and waves...is it particles and waves all the way down? That's the only conclusion you can logically draw from your conflation. You conflate the units we use to describe length and time with length and time themselves, then say that since the units are products of the human mind, the phenomenon must be as well. Well, the units we use to describe God are products of the human mind as well...so if units are the thing itself, then the word god must be god itself, which means it's a product of the human mind. If you disagree with this, then you can obviously separate units and terms from the phenomenon itself...making you disingenuous at best and a liar at worst when you conflate minutes and seconds with "time" or "duration"

Distractions aside^*, relativity works which is the scientific evidence you asked for.

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^* See also, What the Global Positioning System Tells Us about Relativity and Real-World Relativity: The GPS Navigation System or even google

Oh that is so kick-ass.I can't wait to be a smartass with that one!