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Author | Topic: Are Fundamentalists Inherently Immoral | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Holyfire23 Inactive Member |
purpledawn writes: Why do you think our definition of sin is different than yours and why didn't you go ahead and provide your definition? I provided my definition of morality. To be clear however, I define sin using the Gospel. If you knew the Bible you would know that God is an infinite, all-knowing being. He knows what is good for us and makes the rules accordingly. Immorality and life are incompatible. Immorality not only leads to death for the immoral, but can potentially affect and/or corrupt the moral. (This is true even if you take God out of the equation.) The problem is, true morality is impossible without an infinite, all-knowing being. You are making moral judgements on the Bible based upon a morality invented by finite, fallible human beings i.e. Neitzche, Kant, Keikergard. Some of your view is consistent with that of the Christian religion (murder, rape, blah blah blah= wrong) some of it is not (the veiw that morality is relative.) The reason God unleashed His wrath onto so many people in the Bible is because they were corrupting Isreal. The Isrealites were His people. They were the people he picked to be the forefathers of the His Son. When God punished a nation, it was because they were getting in the way of His plan--which was to save humanity, by sending His Son to die for the sins of man. You might ask, "Why is God's plan so important that he would kill others in order to achieve it?" Because if he sat back and did not punish people for their actions then the whole world would resort to lawlessness and reject Him. This would lead to the human race dieing out and His plan to have a people that He could spend eternity with would have failed. It wouldn't have failed because of a mistake God made, but because of the corruption that man had brought on himself. The Bible does not teach that men are to define morality. That is a responsibility that only God is capable of holding. That is atheisms real beef with God. Atheists want to be able to define their own morality. As a result, they attack the Bible using their own versions of morality. The real problem you guys have with God is this--you don't think God should be able to define morality for you. If another man came over and said, "You have to abide by my definition of morality." you would attack his definition also. Can anybody give me a verse in the Bible where God told man it was ok to define morality? Can anybody give me a verse from the Gospel where man is told it is ok to murder? I can already answer that. However, you can still try. Edited by Holyfire23, : No reason given. Edited by Holyfire23, : No reason given.
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Holyfire23 Inactive Member |
Lithodid-Man writes: I don't know, this comes awfully close: Matthew 7:12 "In everything do to others as you have them do to you; for this the law and the prophets" Treat others the way you wish to be treated. This doesn't give man authority over the definition of morality. It gives man a tip on how to be treated nicely. Treat others nicely and you will also be treated nicely.
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Holyfire23 Inactive Member |
dwise1 writes: They have virtually no capacity for moral reasoning. Malcom Muggridge once said, "If God is dead then someone is going to have to take his place.". That is the essence of atheism. Atheism does not reject the concept of God, they just place man in that place and kick God out. An atheist holds his own reasoning as infallible. All of you are assuming that man is basically good. However, if man is basically good, why is there so much evil in the world? If man has the capacity to reason morally, than how did the Holocaust happen? How come people like Stalin and Mao got the way they were? I heard on the news just last night that a 29 year old girl called the local police. She had been kidnapped in 1991 and had been kept in a cage as a sex slave ever since. Her kidnappers were a husband and wife team. If man can reason morally, how do people get like this? I don't call this an anomoly. Men do these things way too often. I call this humanism in its purest form. Don't get me wrong, I know there are alot of moral people who do not believe in God. But like I said earlier, they are simply living above their philosophical standards. Here is my point. If there is no perfect and infinite being to define morality, then a finite and imperfect being must take his place. If there is an imperfect being defining morality, how can man reach true morality? If ther is no perfect being to define morality, then man starts to define morality based on his reasoning, and then starts to reason based on his morality. This argument is patheticaly circular. Answer me this question. What happens when two men reach two different moral conclusions using their own reasoning?
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Holyfire23 Inactive Member |
purpledawn writes: Ok. I define morality using the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That includes the definition of sin.
The definition of morality is not the same definition of sin and still you don't give your definition of sin. purpledawn writes:
If you read the Bible, you would know that God is not all knowing and his infinite status is Catholic Dogma. If you disagree, then show verses that clearly prove otherwise.Revelation 22:13 writes: I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Psalm 139 writes: O LORD, you have searched meand you know me. 2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. 3 You discern my going out and my lying down;you are familiar with all my ways. 4 Before a word is on my tongueyou know it completely, O LORD. 5 You hem me inbehind and before;you have laid your hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me,too lofty for me to attain. 7 Where can I go from your Spirit?Where can I flee from your presence? 8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there;if I make my bed in the depths, [a] you are there. 9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn,if I settle on the far side of the sea, 10 even there your hand will guide me,your right hand will hold me fast. 11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will hide meand the light become night around me," 12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you. 13 For you created my inmost being;you knit me together in my mother's womb. 14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;your works are wonderful, I know that full well. 15 My frame was not hidden from youwhen I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, 16 your eyes saw my unformed body.All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. 17 How precious to me are your thoughts, O God!How vast is the sum of them! 18 Were I to count them,they would outnumber the grains of sand. When I awake, I am still with you. 19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God!Away from me, you bloodthirsty men! 20 They speak of you with evil intent;your adversaries misuse your name. 21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,and abhor those who rise up against you? 22 I have nothing but hatred for them;I count them my enemies. 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;test me and know my anxious thoughts. 24 See if there is any offensive way in me,and lead me in the way everlasting. purpledawn writes: Have you read the Old Testament? In the Midianite story innocent people were murdered by God's direction. He broke his own rule. Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17, Matthew 19:18, Mark 10:19, Luke 18:20, Let me put this story into context. As I already said, the Midianites conspired with the Balak to destroy the Isrealites. This just sets the backround. God was already angry with the Midianites. (Numbers 22:1-7)
Numbers 25 writes:
Let us analyze this passage. Look at verse 4-5. God commands Moses to behead the Isrealite people who engaged in the sinful acts and hang the heads up for everyone to see. First of all, this shows that God does not play favorites and punishes everyone who sins against him--not just the non-Isrealites. Second, this explains why the children of Isreal were weeping in front of the Tabernacle. This takes some understanding of Jewish tradition. I shall explain this.
1And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab. 2And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods: and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods. 3And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel. 4And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel. 5And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one his men that were joined unto Baalpeor. 6And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 7And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand; 8And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel. 9And those that died in the plague were twenty and four thousand. 10And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 11Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the children of Israel in my jealousy. 12Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace: 13And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel. 14Now the name of the Israelite that was slain, even that was slain with the Midianitish woman, was Zimri, the son of Salu, a prince of a chief house among the Simeonites. 15And the name of the Midianitish woman that was slain was Cozbi, the daughter of Zur; he was head over a people, and of a chief house in Midian. 16And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 17Vex the Midianites, and smite them: 18For they vex you with their wiles, wherewith they have beguiled you in the matter of Peor, and in the matter of Cozbi, the daughter of a prince of Midian, their sister, which was slain in the day of the plague for Peor's sake. Back then, if someone in your family died, you would rip your clothes off, cover your face with ashes, sit at the door of your dwelling, and weep. When the whole nation of Isreal had a tragedy the whole nation wept in front of the Tabernacle--also known as the Tent of Meeting. As you can imagine, when Moses was ordered to behead his own people and hang their heads for everyone to see, it was pretty traumatic and a great tragedy among the Isrealites. This is why in verse 6 we find the "congregation of Isreal" weeping in front of the Tabernacle door. Lets go back to verses 1-3. Isreali men were commiting acts of sexual immorality with Moabite women. Now look at verse 2. They (the Moabites and the Middianites) "called the people unto the sacrifices of their Gods.". The Isrealites willingly agreed. This completely goes against commandment number 1 which says: "Thou shalt not have any other graven images.". Look back at everything that just happened in the first six verses of Numbers 25. So far, a bunch of Isreali men have commited sexually immoral acts which is a sin against God, Isreal has gone and worshiped other gods besides God, Moses has been ordered to behead all the perpetrators, and a plague has come upon Isreal (v. 8-9) Now for the question. Why did Phineas (v. 7) spear the Isrealite man and the Midianite woman? Remember why the children of Isreal were weeping? Because Isreal had commited terrible acts against God and were beheaded. Now imagine the anger Phineas felt when, as he was weeping for the sins of Isreal, another Isrealite man "brought a Midianitish woman unto his brethren". Isreal had just been severely punished for mingling with the Midianites and yet here is a man who brings a Midianite woman right into the Isreali camp, AND right in front of the Tabernacle--the most Holy place in Isreal at the time and the very resting place of God. What stupidity! It was downright disobedience. This is why Phinehas killed them both. They were purposely disobeying God. Phinehas punished them. All of the people who mingled with the Midianites had to die. That is what Phinehas did. He killed them, thus obeying the orders of God. As a result, the plague was lifted of Isreal. Lastly, why where the Midianites punished for what seemed like ignorance? It wasn't ignorace. This was a deliberate ploy that was concieved to destroy Isreal from within. Remember that in Numbers 22 the Moabites and the Midianites had joined forces to try and destroy Isreal. They knew that if Isreal rejected God and joined with them, they would not be destroyed. They were mistaken because God saw their plan. That is why they were punished. You cannot take the bible out of context. Otherwise, it can be twisted and bent to mean anything. I am not accusing you of doing this purposely, but you definately don't have all the facts. That is whay I asked you if you have read the whole Old Testament. Heck, if you just read the whole book of Numbers it would be more clear.
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Holyfire23 Inactive Member |
purpledawn writes: Show me that there was a plan to destroy Israel from within. Numbers 25:18 writes: The Midianites weren't dumb. They knew that if they intermarried with the Isrealites, had children with them, and converted them that the Isrealites would not destroy them. God punished the Midianites because they tempted Isreal into worshiping a false god. I'm not sure where you think I am adding to the story.
For they vex you with their wiles, wherewith they have beguiled you in the matter of Peor, and in the matter of Cozbi, the daughter of a prince of Midian, their sister, which was slain in the day of the plague for Peor's sake. purpledawn writes: Since you seem to know the Bible so well, why don't you provide the definition of morality according to the Gospel?
Holyfire23 writes: And still you provide nothing. Ok. I define morality using the Gospel of Jesus Christ. That includes the definition of sin.
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Holyfire23 Inactive Member |
purpledawn writes: I define morality based on what the Gospel says. Matthew chapter 5 sums sin up pretty well.
You have claimed that your definition of sin is different than those of your opponents. Please provide your definition of sin and how it is contrary to the definition I already provided. Matthew 5 writes: This chapter is called the "sermon on the mount". This is where Jesus introduced the new law. Before this the Jews still adhered by the law we in the Old Testament. This includes the laws that everybody here thinks are harsh. Jesus was not contradicitng these laws but fullfilling them. All of these laws were designed to protect the Isrealites for one reason--Jesus. Jesus was destined by God to be an Isrealite. The Isrealites had to survive if Jesus was going to descend from them. That is why in the Old Testament God is so strict with the Isrealites and other nations. The Isrealites were not to engage in other religions. God demands our full devotion to him. We cannot worship him and other things. If the Isrealites worshiped another god they were rejecting God. This was a threat to the existence of the Isrealites. Therefore, God put strict laws in place in order to keep the Isrealites from being corrupted. Anyone who broke those laws had to be dealt with i.e. punished so that the others would not be corrupted.
1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God. 10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you. Salt and Light13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men. 14"You are the light of the world. A city on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. The Fulfillment of the Law17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. Murder 21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. 23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. 25"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. Adultery27"You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. Divorce 31"It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. Oaths 33"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.' 34But I tell you, Do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King. 36And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black. 37Simply let your 'Yes' be 'Yes,' and your 'No,' 'No'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. An Eye for an Eye 38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. Love for Enemies 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
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Holyfire23 Inactive Member |
purpledawn writes: Did Matthew 5 not define sin?
You still haven't provided a definition of sin. 1 John 3:4 writes: Sin is lawlessness. The law being referred to is God's law.
Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. You must understand some things about Jesus. He came with a mission. His goal was to die for the sins of man. However, in doing that, he managed to accomplish much more. The Jewish law is very extensive. I won't explain it all for that reason. However, the first five books of the Bible are basically a history of the Jewish laws, the Jewish people, and the people God used to set the laws in place. However, to sum it all up, the Jewish laws were set in place for three reasons. First, the Jewish laws were set in place for the purpose of forgivness of sins. Before Jesus, there were a multitude of rituals within the Jewish tradition. It ranged from purifying yourself, to making animal sacrifices, to the high preist going in once a year to make a sacrifice. These were done in obedience to God for He was the one who demanded them. Second, the Jewish laws were put in place to protect the Isrealites. Like I said earlier, God had a plan for the Isrealites. They were His chosen people. The anscestors of His Son. They could not become corrupted by other nations and religions. That is why God set such strict laws in place. Sin could not be tolerated because sin corrupts. The consequences for sin had to be great. If there are no consequences for sin then people will never learn that sin is wrong. Third, the laws were put in place to show man that he was not infallibe, inerrant, and fundamentaly moral. God made these laws to show man that he was not perfect and that he needed a Saviour. Man cannot forgive his own sins. The only person who has the power to pardon man from his sins is God. And God wanted man to know that--if man wanted to be pure he had to abide by God's rules and nobody else's. Jesus did not abolish the laws that God had set in place in the Old Testament. He did ,however, make all the rituals in Jewish tradition obsolete. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice. Because He died for us, we no longer have to purify ourselves, or make animal sacrifices, or have a high priest make an annual sacrifice for the sins of us all. Jesus was the Ultimate High Priest if you will. He went to the cross to once and for all pay the price for our sins so that we would never have to. The punishment of sin is still death. But God does not demand it right away. God gives us our whole lives to repent for our sins. If we repent for our sins, God forgives them--no matter how terrible the sin. What mercy! If God was not merciful, many of us would have been stoned long ago. This was a huge part of Jesus' message. Jesus' message was was basically this: God is a loving God. He wishes to have a personal relationship with you. God is merciful. This was a differnt perspective of God compared to how most Jews saw God. To most people, God was a God who was to be respected and feared. If you didn't fear and respect Him, you would be punished. Jesus came to say that God was not all about stoning you.
John 14:20-24 writes: God is still to be feared and respected in the sense that everyone should know that they will one day be judged by God for their sins and punished. However, God has taken all the rituals and traditions that one had to do to attain salavtion and replaced it with one simple rule.
On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?" Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. John 3:16 writes: Today all we must do is confess that we are sinners and believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins. That is it. That is a radical differnece compared to all the rituals that the ancient Jewish law commanded of us.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. In conclusion, Jesus did not abolish or change the laws that God had set in place i.e. Ten commandments, but he did do away with all the rituals. All that being said, I will restate my definition of morality.: I define right and wrong using the Gospel of Jesus Christ. What Jesus said was a sin, I call a sin. What Jesus called righteousness, I call righteousness.
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Holyfire23 Inactive Member |
dwise1 writes: So I have no moral capacity because I define right and wrong based on what God says? And yet, you hold that morality is determined by society and upbringing. You are trading one god for another. What makes society a better base for morality than God? Look at all the societies that have existed. All of them had there own definition of morality. Some of them were similiar to ours; some of them were radically different. How can you say that rape is wrong in all circumstances and then hold something as fickle as society to be your basis for morality? As I stated earlier, if there is no such thing as an infinite and all-knowing being to define morality, there must be a finite and fallible being to to take its place. Do you agree?
As I have stated, you are amoral. You have abrogated your moral reasoning to your sectarian misinterpretation of the particular parts of Scripture that you have selectively chosen to use. dwise1 writes: Again, you are twisting the context. Back then a woman had no status as a human unless she was married to a man. This was true outside of the Isrealite nation also. The average marriage age back then was 13. As soon as you were able to become pregnant, you were considered marriage material. Again, this was true outside of the Isrealite nation. Any act, no matter how horrifically immoral, is deemed moral if your god had ordered it? Sin is disobeying God, so it is not a sin if God commands you to go out and take a young virgin captive by force and rape her repeatedly for the rest of her life? In the case of the Midianites, the virgins were spared because it was safe to say that they had not participated in any sexual immorality. They were "taken" by the Isrealites, because they had nowhere else to go. They either left the girls out in the wilderness to die, or they took them back to their camps where the girls led the same life they would have had they not been attacked. You accuse the Isrealites of being immoral but you conveniently leave out the context of the times they were living in. Marriages back then were always arranged. Girls were forced to marry whomever their father told them to. This was true of the Isrealites, Midianites, and all the other "ites". It wasn't rape. The act of forcing a woman to have sex has always been considered sinful in the Bible. Marriage age has changed since then. But there is nowhere in the Bible where God said it was ok to force a woman to have sex with someone.
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Holyfire23 Inactive Member |
Can you, in your own words, define what God's law is?
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Holyfire23 Inactive Member |
purpledawn writes: Anyone who wishes to answer it.
have no idea to whom you are addressing that question. purpledawn writes: So you admit that you have not studied the subject of God and His Law? My question now is this, since you cannot give me the definition of God's Law and since you admit that you have not studied it to a sufficient extent, how can you pass judgements on it? How can you say that God breaches His own Law when you cannot even define it? Have you read the Bible?
Your religious question should normally be directed to practitioners of the religion in question or to those who have studied that religion to a sufficient extent. purpledawn writes: According to this view, morality can only be judged within that society or group then. Who cares what other societies do because they have there own "acceptable modes of conduct". Morals are the acceptable modes of conduct for a society or group. Answer me this, using your mode of moral reasoning, please tell me who is more moral. The ancient Aztecs, or todays western society? FYI, the ancient Aztecs regularly made child sacrifices to their rain gods. They believed the more tears the child shed before they died, the more rain would come. Who is more moral?
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Holyfire23 Inactive Member |
dwise1 writes: Ooops! I am truly sorry. I didn't mean to make a false quote. I read your post first, and then purpledawn's. I got you two mixed up. Please forgive me, purpledawn and dwise1, I didn't mean tp put words in anyone's mouth.
Uh, excuse me please, but why did you put my words into purpledawn's mouth? That is not right, it is not nice, and it is totally uncalled for. Is that an living example of your "moral absolutes"? Rahvin writes: Assuming the theory of moral relativism is true, please tell me who is more moral---the ancient Aztecs or our modern society?
Under what ethical system, using what assumptions? purpledawn writes: I use the Ten Commandments given to Moses by God in Exodus 20:3-17.
How do you come up with just 10 laws and the Jews have 613 commandments from the OT? The question was, which set of the 10 do you use and why? Rahvin writes: That is an absolute statement. This implies that truth is absolute (I agree with this). However, if you adhere to the belief that truth is absolute, then you are forced to say that their is an absolute definition of right and wrong. Absolute truth implies absolute morality, therefore, your statment is a contradictory one. There is no such thing as a moral absolute. Atheists make alot of absolute statements that they cannot defend because their own beliefs don't allow for the theory of absolutism. Let me ask all of you this question. Do you agree with me that veiwing child pornography is absolutely evil and wrong?
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Holyfire23 Inactive Member |
Rahvin writes:
There is no such thing as a moral absolute. Rahvin writes:
"Truth" is not absolute. Truth is subjective - the teachings of Jesus, for example, can have great "truth" regardless of whether the man Jesus ever existed or ever said the things recorded in the Bible. Even fairy tales contain "truth," even though they're completely made-up. Fact is absolute. There is a difference; a rather large one, at that. If there is no such thing as absolute truth, you cannot say there is absolutely no such thing as an absolute moral law, nor can you acknowledge the presence of fact. All you have is speculation and that cannot be used to make an absolute assertion.
Rahvin writes: A stop sign objectively exists; the red octagon remains perched on its post at the street corner regardless of whether someone is there to observe it or not. All observers who are able to see the stop sign will see it; it exists independently of the human mind, of human emotion. A person from Kansas, from California, from the UK, and from India will all see the sign and describe its physical features the same way. Even animals will see it. The meaning of the stop sign, however, is subjective. To a person who's never seen a car and doesn't speak English, the stop sign will have no meaning at all - it will be an odd red octagonal object, but the meaning that the sign represents will not exist. The meaning of the stop sign, the instruction to stop your car before proceeding, does not exist independently of the observer. Through commonality of experience and agreeing that a red octagon with the word "STOP" written on it will symbolize the instruction to stop your vehicle, many people (hopefully everyone with a US driver's license, though I've seen a fair few who apparently take the meaning to be "slow down slightly;" which both helps prove my point and tends to earn one a traffic ticket) will agree upon the meaning. But to a person wholly unfamiliar with US traffic signs and driving in general, the sign will not function as an instruction to stop a vehicle. Symbols are subjective - they have common meaning only when we all agree upon the common meaning. The meaning does not exist outside of our agreements. A squirrel will not understand the "meaning" of the sign. A young child who has not yet learned how to read or picked up on the meaning of a stop sign yet will not understand. If humanity disappeared tomorrow, no stop signs would have any meaning whatsoever. In another culture, a red octagon could be used as a "yield" sign, or a "no parking" sign, or be assigned any other meaning at all. The notion that the meaning of a Stop sign is subjective to man’s interpretation is true. You are forgetting one thing howeverthe purpose for which it was created. Someone put that stop sign there. That purpose was so that people would see the sign and know it meant Stop. It is true that a foreigner might see a stop sign, have no clue what it means, and drive right by. But just because he interpreted that sign differently does not change the fact that he is violating the purpose for which that stop sign was created. The creator of the stop sign did not put the stop sign there for people to interpret it subjectively. That creator had an absolute purpose in mindstop. In order to interpret the meaning of a stop sign correctly, we must look to the creator of the stop sign. In the same way, we must look to the Creator of the human mind to interpret the meaning of morality. My question to you is, who or what created the human mind? Here we have a fundamental difference in our modes of reasoning. I base my reasoning off a Creator, you do not. Until one of us is able to agree with the other on this level, we cannot effectively argue the specifics i.e. the things created. This is what turns so many arguments between atheists and theists into circular arguments. In order to argue a point effectively, we must agree on some level of assumption. If we cannot agree on the level of assumption, all arguments past the level of assumption become circular or dead-ended. We get nowhere. This argument was doomed from the beginning. None of us set up a good foundation on which to build an effective argument, and thus, no good argument has come about. I am, therefore, done posting on this thread.
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