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Member (Idle past 858 days) Posts: 2339 From: Socorro, New Mexico USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Are Fundamentalists Inherently Immoral | |||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:No, it didn't. It gives teachings on some behaviors. quote:So your definition is not any different than what I provided in Message 101, which is the meaning of the word used in the OT. Definition of Chata'-Translated Sin - Verb 1) to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit, purify from uncleanness Here's the NT definition for the word translated as sin.
hamartanō. 1) to be without a share in 2) to miss the mark 3) to err, be mistaken 4) to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honour, to do or go wrong 5) to wander from the law of God, violate God's law, sin quote:The Jewish laws were set in place to govern a people. God did not demand sacrifices. See the thread: Jesus Was Not A Sacrifice To Forgive Sins. Sacrifices weren't necessary for forgiveness. Ezekiel 18:21-22 But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. Yes, the Priestly portion of the Mosaic Law gives instructions if one brings a sacrifice. Notice there is no penalty, that I've seen, in Leviticus for not bringing a sacrifice.
quote:Again the laws were put into place for the same reason any other civilization puts laws in place. Many laws are for protection, but the Jewish laws weren't put in place for a future master plan. Not all sin corrupts. People who break the speed limit aren't automatically corrupt. quote:No it wasn't. Laws were a part of life for mankind. It had nothing to do with showing people they were fallible or immoral. It had to do with managing a civilization. quote:Jesus did not make the Jewish rituals obsolete. The Jewish followers of Jesus continued these Jewish rituals. Gentiles in the first century weren't bound by Jewish Law. The punishment for sin is not physical death. The penalties fit the crime, just like today. If you are speaking of spiritual death or an afterlife deal, then please be specific. The Jewish laws and penalties are applied in real life. That's Paul's message to the Gentiles, not the message Jesus brought to the Jews. People in the OT also had their whole lives to repent and once they repented their offenses were forgotten.
quote:How do you come up with just 10 laws and the Jews have 613 commandments from the OT? Jesus didn't do away with the rituals. Jewish reformists were trying to do away with the rituals long before Jesus was born. The sacrificial system was very expensive to maintain. (175BCE) The destruction of the temple did away with the sacrificial system. (70CE)
quote:But that isn't the picture painted in the OT, which is the point of this thread. What you present is not logically consistent. Killing thousands for the mistakes of the leadership is not an example of a loving and merciful god.
quote:What's the point in punishing a person after they are physically dead? quote:Unfortunately that's not a definition. The scary part is that we don't even know what Jesus actually said and what is attributed to Jesus is basically Jewish Law which contains more than just the 10 or even the 613. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You must be a man. Actually the infinite and all knowing being was created by the finite and fallible being. In some cultures it adds authority to the morals practiced by fallible being. If God said it, it must be right. The same outlook you profess. You have no way of knowing if God actually said it or the fallible being just wrote it that way.
quote:Read my Message 43 & Message 71. Stop rationalizing. Assume you're a Hebrew at the time of Moses and you and your tribesmen have just killed all the men of Midian for no other reason than your god's vengence. (Odds are all the men weren't in the battle, just like all the Hebrews weren't in the battle. Older men tend to stay behind.) What are you going to do next? Next on the list of things to do is plunder and lay waste the conquered city, even though you already know your god has promised you land on the other side of the Jordan. So you proceed to burn all the towns where the Midianites had settled as well as all their camps. You take all their herds, flocks and goods as plunder. (BTW, if you hadn't plundered their food and livestock and wasted their homes, the women and children probably would have managed just fine.) Now you feel sorry for the poor women and take them and their children back to camp with you. Now you are ordered to kill all the boys and women who are not virgins. This means there are no mothers left to tend their children. (Yep, they were much safer with you than in the barren village.) There is nothing moral about this situation. Since women tended to be married off young, odds are the Hebrews were left with girls under 18 years of age. Only those with menses would be taken as wives. That could be as young as 13 years of age. (No trauma there! :eek Just because women were forced into these situations due to their culture, doesn't mean it was right. We have no idea how many women/girls might have committed suicide due to the trauma. It is logically inconsistent to present a loving God who contributed to the suffering of others and claim he never changes. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:If you checked out the Christian Law thread you would see that no one has been able to list Christian Laws or God's laws that bind Christians. Divine law is any law or rule that, in the opinion of believers, comes directly from the will of a god and independent of the will of man and cannot be changed by man. In Judaism, it is the Torah that contains God's law or the 613 Mitzvot. In Christianity, it seems to be the first list of the 10 Commandments and whatever they seem to glean from the NT writers or wish to pull from the Torah. You can't really deem someone lawless without out specific laws to judge them. Morals are the acceptable modes of conduct for a society or group. Sometimes the laws of the land cover morals. Sometimes groups carry morals of their own separate from the local laws. You apparently consider the 10 Commandments to be your measuring stick for God's Law. The question was, which set of the 10 do you use and why? Text of the Decalogues Traditional Decalogue - Exodus 20:3-17Ritual Decalogue - Exodus 34:14-26 Exodus 34:11
And the Lord said to Moses, Cut out two tablets of stone like the first, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you smashed Exodus 34:28
Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant--the Ten Commandments.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:It helps if you get your quotes straight. That wasn't my question. It was dwise1, which I think he has also corrected you in his Message 141. Be very careful quote accurately. quote:Again, not my statement and I have not admitted that I haven't studied God's law. I have been through Christian Bible studies on the covenant and the laws and I did define God's law. You, unfortunately don't understand what a definition is. From Message 137 Divine law is any law or rule that, in the opinion of believers, comes directly from the will of a god and independent of the will of man and cannot be changed by man. I also showed you that the Jewish list of God's laws and the Christian view of God's law are not the same. You on the other hand have not answered the question I posed in Message 129 and Message 137. How do you come up with just 10 laws and the Jews have 613 commandments from the OT? The question was, which set of the 10 do you use and why? Try answering the questions asked.
quote:I can't say it any more succinctly than Rahvin did in his response to this question in Message 140. Try to read and comprehend what he is saying. Excellent post Rahvin! "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3479 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Apology accepted. quote:Why? Stop making us waste posts to keep you on track. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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