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Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 391 of 687 (523151)
09-08-2009 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by lyx2no
09-08-2009 4:15 PM


Re: Time
Hi lyx2no,
lyx2no writes:
Length exists as a tool of man which is used to measure distance, measured with reference to the King's shoe size.
You mean I got to rethink that one about length.
I always thought it was based on the distance from a man's elbow to the tip of his middle finger. That was divided up into our present numbers on our measuring instruments.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 387 by lyx2no, posted 09-08-2009 4:15 PM lyx2no has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Sasuke, posted 09-08-2009 4:45 PM ICANT has replied

  
lyx2no
Member (Idle past 4735 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 392 of 687 (523152)
09-08-2009 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 370 by mike the wiz
09-08-2009 5:41 AM


Re: Congrats. I Think You've One You Can Win.
This has not been "proven" under the definition of a sound deductive syllogism that leaves no holes or flaws possible. There is an induction present which has led to a scientific consensus that evolution happened, despite major facts and evidences that would normally lead to a paradigm shift.
I clearly wrote " 'proven' to the satisfaction of all but the most perverse" not "that leaves no holes or flaws possible." I wonder why I said it that way. It is possible that I was kidnapped by atheist fiends who forced me to say it in exactly that form because they suffer from a lack of confidence in their convictions, or because I meant "proven" to the satisfaction of all but the most perverse. But because the first is 'possible' I'm guessing it's the favored of the two.
There are not any major facts and evidences that would normally lead to a paradigm shift. Those are figments of your imagination. You've been asked to put them on the table on more then one occasion, and you, and the rest of the creationists, have failed to produce anything other then examples of a complete inability to understand what it is you're talking about.
Instead the answer is; "oh but we already know evolution happened, therefore let's find an evolutionary answer rather than look at another possibility".
Another figment of your imagination. People can only fool themselves for so long when their explanations must conform to reality. As you only have to conform to a story book you can fool yourself indefinitely.
There are neutral folk whom have big big problems believing in evolution, because of the problems with it.
No, there aren't.
I have not seen good enough logical answers to explain away such contrary facts.
That is because your standard of good enough is "conforming to the Bible." Contrary to the Bible is not the same as contrary to facts.

It's not the man that knows the most that has the most to say.
Anon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by mike the wiz, posted 09-08-2009 5:41 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 5173 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 393 of 687 (523155)
09-08-2009 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 391 by ICANT
09-08-2009 4:30 PM


Re: Time
ICANT,
I think you have an inability to think in probability. Is it more probable that there is time, duration, existence.. or is it more probable that there is no time, no duration or no existence?
Then is it more probable that we evolved or were created? and if we were created how long did it take god to create? and if it took a period time to create is that understanding of "time" not biblical??
Edited by Sasuke, : edit
Edited by Sasuke, : edit

OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 391 by ICANT, posted 09-08-2009 4:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 396 by ICANT, posted 09-08-2009 5:34 PM Sasuke has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 394 of 687 (523159)
09-08-2009 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 390 by cavediver
09-08-2009 4:28 PM


Re: Time
Hi cavediver,
Does the atomic clocks in the satellite's tick slower because time slow's down?
OR
Does the atomic clocks in the satellite's tick slower because of their environment? Which is 11,000 miles above the earth in a geo-synchronous orbit, or a circular polar orbit.
How can all the clocks be synchronous in the different orbit's if relativity is correct?
They were all pre-corrected for their motion relative to a hypothetical earth centered clock prior to launch.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 390 by cavediver, posted 09-08-2009 4:28 PM cavediver has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 397 by JonF, posted 09-08-2009 5:35 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 399 by Sasuke, posted 09-08-2009 5:46 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 400 by Perdition, posted 09-08-2009 5:48 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 402 by cavediver, posted 09-08-2009 6:21 PM ICANT has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 395 of 687 (523163)
09-08-2009 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 379 by ICANT
09-08-2009 3:24 PM


Re: Talking about
The only way for the clock to run faster is for time to run faster on the satellite.
Are you sure?
Yes. It's the only viable explanation we've got. And it's been put through the wringer like no other, and passed all tests. Feel free to prove yourself smarter than Einstein and all the relativists that have studied the subject in the past hundred years, and propose another viable explanation which explains all the observed facts that General Relativity does.
Someone may come up with a different theory. But it's going to have to predict all the same things that GR does except for extremes of subatomic sizes and/or black-hole-strength gravitational fields. At velocities and gravitational fields we encounter in our solar system, the predictions of GR are 100% true and confirmed.
That's the only thing that can affect the frequency of cesium transitions.
Then how do they adjust the frequency to sync the satellite atomic clock's to the stationary earth atomic clock's?
They don't adjust the frequency. They can't control that. They change the number of transitions that pass before the clock registers one second. An atomic clock on Earth counts 9,192,631,770 transitions before it registers one more second. A GPS satellite clock on Earth counts 9,192,631,770 - 26,316 = 9,192,605,454 transitions (26,316 = 1/38*10-6, the difference between satellite time and Earth time) before it registers one second. In orbit, the clock continues to count 9,192,605,454 transitions before it registers one second… and these 9,192,605,454 transitions take the same amount of time as 9,192,631,770 transitions on the Earth-based clock because time is running faster on the satellite.
(How it's actually done is more complex, involving PLLs and computers and all sorts of fancy circuitry, but what's actually done is equivalent to what I described above.)
Which is done once each day.
The clocks are reset once each day because there are other effects that make them drift. These are much smaller than the main relativistic corrections. If the relativistic corrections were not applied the clocks would have to be reset every few minutes. And that's exactly what they are doing each day; resetting the clocks, which doesn't affect the transition frequency. Just as setting the time on your alarm clock at home doesn't affect the frequency of the quartz crystal that it uses to measure time.
I am not that smart to propose a theory but how about this
one
I'm not impressed that you can find a uneducated nutjob to back up your claims; you can find anything on the Intertubes. It's up to you to demonstrate that his analysis is valid (Hint: it's trivial to show that it ain't, 'cause the satellites are continuously accelerating but he's trying to analyze the situation using only SR. QED.)
That is not what relativity says will happen
Mostly, it is. The gobbledygook about "Time remain unaffected…" is just that: usupported gobbledygook. We have experience measuring the lifetime of muons far from the surface of the Earth, and it's up to you to demonstrate that our experience is somehow inadequate. The twins do not wind up the same age; I like http://mentock.home.mindspring.com/twins.htm as a simple explanation of why.
Just a crazy question I have. If the duration of a second is determined by dividing up the duration of a rotation of the earth on it axis, wouldn't the earth have to slow down to make time slow down for the satellite clock?
The duration of a second once had something to do with the rotation of the Earth, but it has not had anything to do with the rotation of the Earth for decades. The duration of a second is 9,192,631,770 cycles of radiation corresponding to the transition between two energy levels of the cesium-133 atom (at Earth's surface) and has been since 1967.
However, the second is just a unit we choose to measure time; time itself (really spacetime) is not dependent on the tools we use to measure it. Just like length exists whether we measure it with a wooden ruler or a steel tape. Even if the second were defined as 1/5,284,000 of the time it takes for the Earth to rotate on its axis, time would still slow down on the satellite clock without changing the Earth's rotation rate because time passes differently on the satellite clock relative to the Earth clock whether the Earth clock is a cesium atomic clock or a rotating Earth or your alarm clock at home or anything that measures time.
We do have to add leap seconds to the atomic clocks because the earth's rotation is slowing down.
Yup. So what? We like to have Mean Solar Time (based on the Earth's rotation) close to Universal Coordinated Time (based on atomic clocks). But that's just an arbitrary preference we've chosen. Leap seconds are not necessary to measuring time, and could be discarded without affecting the fact that the time runs faster on the satellite than it does on Earth.
Whether I like or dislike GR has nothing to do with it being right or wrong. It doesn't make any difference what I think. It is either right or it is wrong. There are things that are wrong.
List 'em. The "paper" you linked to doesn't help you.
Your assertions don't make it right either
Nobody's assertions do. But I'm not going to try to reproduce the equations and figures and explanations in this medium Here's some links that support my explanations.
GPS and Relativity
http://tycho.usno.navy.mil/ptti/1996/Vol%2028_16.pdf
Dealing with Creationism in Astronomy: Scott Rebuttal. I. GPS & Relativity
Changes
Home | Navigation Center
I also recommend Global Positioning System: Theory and Practice, but it's a little expensive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by ICANT, posted 09-08-2009 3:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 416 by ICANT, posted 09-08-2009 10:03 PM JonF has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 396 of 687 (523164)
09-08-2009 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by Sasuke
09-08-2009 4:45 PM


Re: Time
Hi Sasuke,
Sasuke writes:
I think you have an inability to think in probability. Is it more probable that there is time, duration, existence.. or is it more probable that there is no time, no duration or no existence?
I know existence/duration is.
I know that mankind has devised a way to measure existence/duration.
I know that it makes no difference what I say the probability you will not believe a word of it whether you can refute it or not is off the chart.
Sasuke writes:
Then is it more probable that we evolved or were created? and if we were created how long did it take god to create? and if it took a period time to create is that understanding of "time" not biblical??
Life begets life. Proven by science.
Non life produces nothing. Proven by science.
We are here and we are alive.
Therefore there is a 100% probability we were created by a life form.
God has had an eternity to create.
In my position on creation Gen 1:1 and it's history found in Gen 2:4-4:24 took place in a light period that ended in Gen 1:2 with evening.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 393 by Sasuke, posted 09-08-2009 4:45 PM Sasuke has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 398 by Sasuke, posted 09-08-2009 5:37 PM ICANT has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 187 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 397 of 687 (523165)
09-08-2009 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by ICANT
09-08-2009 5:13 PM


Re: Time
Does the atomic clocks in the satellite's tick slower because time slow's down?
OR
Does the atomic clocks in the satellite's tick slower because of their environment? Which is 11,000 miles above the earth in a geo-synchronous orbit, or a circular polar orbit.
The former.
How can all the clocks be synchronous in the different orbit's if relativity is correct?
The transformation to view one satellite's clock from the point of view on another satellite is much more complex that your pal's "paper" would have it, and ends up with reality agreeing with the predictions of relativity when the transformation is carried out correctly.
You can't ignore acceleration just because you are looking at the satellites at one instant of time. They are always accelerating.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by ICANT, posted 09-08-2009 5:13 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 401 by ICANT, posted 09-08-2009 6:20 PM JonF has replied

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 5173 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 398 of 687 (523166)
09-08-2009 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 396 by ICANT
09-08-2009 5:34 PM


Re: Time
ICANT,
how can evening come without duration? I know your answer, the earth orbits the sun. However it happens in events. The distance between these events is measured in duration(who cares if its man made still same thing). I don't care if you divide it up, change the math to make it take 24hrs, 24 years, 24 decades, 24 meleniums.. I don't care in all cases you have a eta... The math is irrelevant to the concept. You still have distance betwen events no matter WHAT. who cares if this existence has always existed or has not always existed. You still have distance betwen events and as such you still have a FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM, FORM of time... did you catch the word FORM before the word TIME?
I have another question. Why do you keep refering to other articles to support your ideas? Cant you just support them on your own? The opinion of some dude on another website/article is of no use here. You need to use facts not other interpretations of facts.
Edited by Sasuke, : edit
Edited by Sasuke, : edit

OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 396 by ICANT, posted 09-08-2009 5:34 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Sasuke
Member (Idle past 5173 days)
Posts: 137
Joined: 08-21-2009


Message 399 of 687 (523168)
09-08-2009 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by ICANT
09-08-2009 5:13 PM


Re: Time
ICANT,
this is irrelevant to their being a spacetime continuum. In much the same way one can count forever until they die, so shall points between events until the universe dies.

OPEN YOUR MIND!
Sasuke!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by ICANT, posted 09-08-2009 5:13 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3256 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 400 of 687 (523170)
09-08-2009 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by ICANT
09-08-2009 5:13 PM


Re: Time
They were all pre-corrected for their motion relative to a hypothetical earth centered clock prior to launch.
Yep, they were all pre-corrected according to relativity, which assumes that spacetime is an inherent property of the universe...and they work to very exact degrees. So, either relativity's calculations are just very lucky guesses, or there is a factual basis to the assumptions it makes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by ICANT, posted 09-08-2009 5:13 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 401 of 687 (523174)
09-08-2009 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 397 by JonF
09-08-2009 5:35 PM


Re: Time
Hi JonF,
JonF writes:
You can't ignore acceleration just because you are looking at the satellites at one instant of time. They are always accelerating.
I just got off the boat (ark).
Explain how something can be accelerating and continuint to circle the earth in just under 12 hrs.
If it is continually accelerating that means it is getting faster and faster doesn't it?
JonF writes:
The transformation to view one satellite's clock from the point of view on another satellite is much more complex that your pal's "paper" would have it, and ends up with reality agreeing with the predictions of relativity when the transformation is carried out correctly.
Well I just look at all the examples and just don't see how the clocks going in different directions can stay in sync if relativity is correct.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 397 by JonF, posted 09-08-2009 5:35 PM JonF has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by cavediver, posted 09-08-2009 6:23 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 404 by Rahvin, posted 09-08-2009 6:33 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 405 by Straggler, posted 09-08-2009 6:33 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 412 by lyx2no, posted 09-08-2009 7:18 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 413 by JonF, posted 09-08-2009 8:09 PM ICANT has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 402 of 687 (523177)
09-08-2009 6:21 PM
Reply to: Message 394 by ICANT
09-08-2009 5:13 PM


Re: Time
How can all the clocks be synchronous in the different orbit's if relativity is correct?
Outstanding, ICANT, you've done it! With this simple observation, you have proven the past 100 years' physics completely wrong: Special Relativity, General Relativity, Quantum Field Theory - fuck the fact that these theories have consistently proven themselves with the most accurate predictions ever made in human history - you, with your persistency and internet bullshit have proven wrong not only me, but Hawking, Einstein, Feynman, Dirac, Fermi, Oppenheimer, Gell-Mann, Weinberg, and every physics department in the world... oh, wait, I've just spotted the fundemental flaw in your argument: you're a twat. Damn, and you were so close.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 394 by ICANT, posted 09-08-2009 5:13 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 414 by JonF, posted 09-08-2009 8:48 PM cavediver has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3662 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 403 of 687 (523178)
09-08-2009 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by ICANT
09-08-2009 6:20 PM


Re: Time
Explain how something can be accelerating and continuint to circle the earth in just under 12 hrs.
If it is continually accelerating that means it is getting faster and faster doesn't it?
Oh, god, I wish I were still lecturing, just so I could pass this one around.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by ICANT, posted 09-08-2009 6:20 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 407 by Jazzns, posted 09-08-2009 6:35 PM cavediver has replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4039
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 8.0


Message 404 of 687 (523180)
09-08-2009 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by ICANT
09-08-2009 6:20 PM


Re: Time
Explain how something can be accelerating and continuint to circle the earth in just under 12 hrs.
Before cavediver has too much of a laughing fit...
"Acceleration" in physics has a very specific meaning: change in velocity (velocity has a specific meaning as well - it includes both speed and direction). Reducing speed is acceleration. Changing directions is acceleration.
If you swing a ball on a string, even if the ball's speed remains constant, the ball is accelerating - its velocity is changing, because its direction is changing.
A satellite in orbit is exactly the same - even if the speed of the satellite remains exactly the same to maintain geosynchronous orbit, its direction is constantly changing - and so it is accelerating without speeding up.
This has consequences, because acceleration means that work is being done, and so entropy must increase. But that's a bit off-topic at the moment.
And yes, this means that when you hit your brakes in your car, you are accelerating. Yet another one of those cases where "common sense" usage of terms just winds up confusing laypeople when physicists start talking...and why you have a terminal case of foot-in-mouth disease.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by ICANT, posted 09-08-2009 6:20 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 409 by cavediver, posted 09-08-2009 6:50 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 405 of 687 (523181)
09-08-2009 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by ICANT
09-08-2009 6:20 PM


Acceleration
ICANT writes:
Explain how something can be accelerating and continuint to circle the earth in just under 12 hrs.
ICANT this stuff is in text books available to 14 year olds.
ICANT writes:
If it is continually accelerating that means it is getting faster and faster doesn't it?
No. It means it is changing velocity. If you swirl a weight attached to a piece of string in a circle around you head can you feel a force? If you let go of the string (i.e. stop supplying a force towards the centre of the circle) what happens to the weight?
ICANT writes:
Well I just look at all the examples and just don't see how the clocks going in different directions can stay in sync if relativity is correct.
If you don't get how a mass moving in an orbit is subject to force and thus acceleration then it is probably fair to say that the subtleties of relativity are not going to come easily.
Wiki writes:
In physics, and more specifically kinematics, acceleration is the change in velocity over time.[1] Because velocity is a vector, it can change in two ways: a change in magnitude and/or a change in direction. In one dimension, acceleration is the rate at which something speeds up or slows down. However, as a vector quantity, acceleration is also the rate at which direction changes.
Acceleration/http - Wikipedia>
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by ICANT, posted 09-08-2009 6:20 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
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