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Author Topic:   Are Fundamentalists Inherently Immoral
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 85 of 161 (521689)
08-28-2009 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Rahvin
08-26-2009 7:19 PM


Objective morality versus good and evil
First of all I want to thank you Rahvin for an absolutely brilliant post. I have c&p'd it to save as a reference, just amazing.
Your first point nails an important concept that cannot be stressed enough:
Rahvin writes:
False. The concept of objective right and wrong ceases to exist, but that doesn't matter - the assertion that morality is relative includes the rejection of an objective moral standard and the aceptance that ethics are subjectively determined by human beings.
This addresses the classic "bait and switch" tactic unscrupulous theists use when discussing the 'problem of evil'. Get your opponent to admit that some things are right and some things are wrong (subjective morality) then switch to objective morality as if synonymous. I think Ravi Zachiarias does this best in his famous and constantly repeated anecdtote:
Ravi Zachiarias writes:
Ravi Zacharias tells of a student who stood up in a lecture he was given and shouted "There's too much evil in the world! God can't exist!" Ravi asked him to stay standing for a little while. This would only take a moment.
He said "When you are saying that evil exists are you not admitting such a thing as good?" The student thought and said he guessed so. Ravi continued, "And are you not then saying there is a moral law on which to differentiate the two?"
Returning to his student he said, "So if there is a moral law aren't you saying there is a moral law giver? If there is no moral law giver, there is no moral law. If there is no moral law, there is no recognizable good. If there is no recognizable good, there is no recognizable evil. Thus, you are using evil to disprove that which you are trying to prove. What was your question?"
This exchange is often presented as a "checkmate!" proof of god, but is really quite a flawed argument meant to impress the already convinced.
To the OP, I find it sad but not surprising that fundies are hesitant to declare rape (or slavery, etc) as immoral. When confronted with demonstrations of their deity's apparent condoning of said immoral acts they immediately become moral relativists ("well those were different times...."). Anyway, thanks again for the post!

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Rahvin, posted 08-26-2009 7:19 PM Rahvin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Rahvin, posted 08-28-2009 2:45 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 95 of 161 (521701)
08-28-2009 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Holyfire23
08-26-2009 11:07 PM


holyfire writes:
Tell me this. Is it wrong for these men to be doing this. Is this not evil? In our culture this is repulsive, but in their culture it is a way of entertainment. If you subscribe to the belief that morality is subjective to cultural interpretation than these men who do these awful things cannot be held accountable for what they do.
Way to slander an entire people with an anecdote! Nice. Isn't fun to marginalize groups of people and play the Us and Them game? You know They probably filmed these acts and put them on Thai public broadcasting, thats what THEY call entertainment. Isn't it easy to pretend that people far away and out of sight are SO different from us? Hey, we believe Bronze age mythology, might as well adopt Bronze age world-views as well (here there be dragons).
You do know that under Thai law these men would spend the rest of their undoubtedly short lives in a deep dark hole, don't you? You ought to be ashamed of yourself for spouting this filth about a nation of people.
Edited by Lithodid-Man, : Added two missing words that clarified the meaning

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Holyfire23, posted 08-26-2009 11:07 PM Holyfire23 has not replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 104 of 161 (521763)
08-28-2009 9:47 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Holyfire23
08-28-2009 9:20 PM


Re: Changing People
holyfire writes:
Can anybody give me a verse in the Bible where God told man it was ok to define morality?
I don't know, this comes awfully close:
Matthew 7:12 "In everything do to others as you have them do to you; for this the law and the prophets"

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Holyfire23, posted 08-28-2009 9:20 PM Holyfire23 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Holyfire23, posted 08-29-2009 1:11 AM Lithodid-Man has replied
 Message 107 by dwise1, posted 08-29-2009 3:20 AM Lithodid-Man has not replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 106 of 161 (521775)
08-29-2009 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Holyfire23
08-29-2009 1:11 AM


Re: Changing People
holyfire writes:
Treat others the way you wish to be treated. This doesn't give man authority over the definition of morality. It gives man a tip on how to be treated nicely. Treat others nicely and you will also be treated nicely.
Interesting interpretation. So Jesus was just pointing out a way to be nice, not talking about morality. What did he mean when he said "for this is the law and the prophets"? THE law and THE prophets, meaning the books of the Pentateuch and the Prophets. Many of the sayings of Jesus are understood to be a summing up of the meaning behind the law and the prophets. But this time he just was just giving friendly advice on how you might be treated nicely. Neat dismissal of your supposed leader.

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Holyfire23, posted 08-29-2009 1:11 AM Holyfire23 has not replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 151 of 161 (523338)
09-09-2009 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Holyfire23
09-08-2009 10:09 PM


Child porn as moral absolute?
Holyfire writes:
Let me ask all of you this question. Do you agree with me that veiwing child pornography is absolutely evil and wrong?
It is fairly obvious that you believed this would trap people into either agreeing with you and therefore admitting a moral absolute or disagree with you and therefore 'support' kiddie porn.
When I read this what came to mind was similar to Rahvin's point about a police officer. I thought what if you were a judge or on a jury convicting someone and had to view the contents of their digital camera? If viewing such things is an absolute evil, then everyone in the court is now guilty. The image that comes to mind is the priest and crowd of 'men' in The Life of Brian "No one should stone anyone until I blow this whistle, even if they do say Jehova".

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Holyfire23, posted 09-08-2009 10:09 PM Holyfire23 has not replied

  
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