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Author Topic:   Atheist evolutionists: How far will you allow yourselves of sexual perversities?
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 46 of 152 (523303)
09-09-2009 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by mike the wiz
09-09-2009 10:43 AM


Re: No Contradiction, Logic, or Morality Here
But do Christians consider all fornication to be equally bad ?
In your view, is homosexuality worse than adultery as defined in Mark 10:11-12 ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by mike the wiz, posted 09-09-2009 10:43 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2009 6:57 AM PaulK has replied
 Message 64 by Peg, posted 09-11-2009 12:02 AM PaulK has replied

  
Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 47 of 152 (523323)
09-09-2009 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by mike the wiz
09-09-2009 10:43 AM


Re: No Contradiction, Logic, or Morality Here
Mike writes:
I was suggesting that we all ask ourselves about lust, and what the New Testament says about it. If anything I was attacking Christians and therefore myself, as we believe that sin is prevailent in all mankind, not just atheists therefore it is not fair to single out atheists over other groups.
I think your point is interesting and well-taken. Unfortunately, I encounter a good number of Christians that single out some 'sins of the flesh' as abominations and others as maybe not your first choice of actions, but Jesus understands.
(I apologize in advance for the long anecdote!) There is a YouTube vlogger who used the name GodGunsGutsGlory. That account was suspended so he uses a number of alias now (godgunsgutsgloryver2, godgunsgutsglory4g, truthvideosver2, slaythefaggots, slaythefaggot2, exposingthetrolls, and several others. Obviously, as you can see by some of his aliases, he is very much anti-gay and about 100% of his videos are all or in part some hate message against homosexuals (and NOT just 'the sin').
Anyhow (for more background), the guy is divorced and remarried. He has a video where he sits in his van in a parking lot videotaping women walking by making crass comments about their appearance and to what degree he would 'do her'. He constantly uses phrases while zooming in on body parts like "That was made for us, guys, for us to get pleasure from". Anyhow, enough of the background.
So myself and a number of others have responded to this guy (who, by the way, considers himself to be a true, bible believing Christian). On the subject of divorce he 'cites' 1 Corinthians as saying it is okay to get divorced if your spouse wants to leave. When we brought up Matthew 5:32, 19:3-10, Mark 10:2-12, and Luke 16:18 about divorce he told us all to shut up we do not understand the Bible and 1 Corinthians trumps our out-of-context verses. When I brought up Matthew 5:27-30 (about his video taping women and lusting) he re-affirmed that lusting after women is what God intended and it is not adultery if you look but don't touch!
His seemingly favorite Bible verse is 1 Corinthians 6:9-10. He uses it as a sword and a shield. He can attack anyone with it, then when accused of say urging the deaths of homosexuals he claims it isn't his thought, but God's word. He emphasizes the fornicator, homosexual, prostitute, and idolater in the verse while mostly silent on adultery and drunkenness.
The point of this post is not to say "See, Christians sin too!" as that point is not the issue and is admitted by all. What this does illustrate, imo, is an example (not evidence!) of why I find the OP to be basically meaningless. Why would we expect "more perversities" among atheists than believers? Is it "If you do not accept objective morality then everything becomes permissible"? If so I would point to examples such as above where very subjective moralities are used (cherry picked?) to condemn other's sins while defending ones own. That is to say, some Christians allow themselves a very long leash on the defining their own morality while claiming they are well within the Biblical definitions.

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by mike the wiz, posted 09-09-2009 10:43 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Taz, posted 09-09-2009 4:19 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied
 Message 50 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2009 6:51 AM Lithodid-Man has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 48 of 152 (523345)
09-09-2009 4:19 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Lithodid-Man
09-09-2009 2:07 PM


Re: No Contradiction, Logic, or Morality Here
Lithodid-Man writes:
There is a YouTube vlogger who used the name GodGunsGutsGlory. That account was suspended so he uses a number of alias now (godgunsgutsgloryver2, godgunsgutsglory4g, truthvideosver2, slaythefaggots, slaythefaggot2, exposingthetrolls, and several others.
WTF!??!!!? I did a quick youtube search of one of those aliases and saw some of the worst filth I ever saw. What the fuck are these people doing in the 21st century?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Lithodid-Man, posted 09-09-2009 2:07 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 49 of 152 (523416)
09-10-2009 4:47 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Dr Jack
09-09-2009 7:57 AM


Re: No Contradiction, Logic, or Morality Here
Yes, of course you are right and in that post, I was wrong.
Must have been on autopilot or something, time to take a break.

The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
Salman Rushdie
This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen

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Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 50 of 152 (523419)
09-10-2009 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Lithodid-Man
09-09-2009 2:07 PM


Re: No Contradiction, Logic, or Morality Here
Thanks for your post.
I think that person you talked about, or a person like that can't have the Holy Spirit. Personally, I just don't see how when all that is revealed is hatred of a certain group, or the use of the bible to only justify his position rather than try and find out what it means.
It's hard enough trying to explain the scriptures about homosexuality, etc, without such people making it much harder. Because ironically, people like this just make it impossible for a genuine believer to explain the Word, and show that we aren't promoting hate.
The point of this post is not to say "See, Christians sin too!" as that point is not the issue and is admitted by all. What this does illustrate, imo, is an example (not evidence!) of why I find the OP to be basically meaningless. Why would we expect "more perversities" among atheists than believers?
I know. And sometimes people who are clearly genuine believers can act grotesquely, or sin, or do something immoral.
I understand that the OP seems to promote a bias towards one group.
Infact I know many decent moral atheist people who are generally, even "more" moral as they don't act in the digusting manner you described, my sole interest is to get people to point within. Whoever the rapist is, or the bigot, he needs to point within, and desire change and righteousness from within. I don't think our moral-formulas are enough, even if they are genuinely commendable.
Thanks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Lithodid-Man, posted 09-09-2009 2:07 PM Lithodid-Man has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Percy, posted 09-10-2009 7:39 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 51 of 152 (523422)
09-10-2009 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by PaulK
09-09-2009 12:06 PM


Re: No Contradiction, Logic, or Morality Here
My understanding is that all sin is not seen on a scale, generally, although there might be exceptions, as there are verses that mention sins that don't lead to death, and sinning against ourselves, etc..
I don't think I could make an argument saying that homosexuality is worse than adultery.
I think in the new covenant, God takes us where we are, and "deals" with our sin in a personal manner. So if a fornicator came to Christ, he would be "convicted" by the Holy Spirit, eventually, that he/she was not proceeding according to righteousness.
Hope that helps. I am "open", in the sense that I am very much explaining my beliefs rather than making a sound syllogism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by PaulK, posted 09-09-2009 12:06 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by PaulK, posted 09-10-2009 7:25 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 52 of 152 (523423)
09-10-2009 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 49 by anglagard
09-10-2009 4:47 AM


Re: No Contradiction, Logic, or Morality Here
Thanks for being honest. If it helps, I can get very thinned out and get on auto pilot and make mistakes, and my grammar starts to go, etc...
Maybe my original response could have been a bit clearer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by anglagard, posted 09-10-2009 4:47 AM anglagard has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 53 of 152 (523424)
09-10-2009 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by mike the wiz
09-10-2009 6:57 AM


Re: No Contradiction, Logic, or Morality Here
Here's the point. Many Protestant churches will carry out marriages which - according to the Gospel of Mark - are adulterous.
But they will campaign against allowing civil marriages for homosexual couples.
Don't you think that that shows a degree of prejudice against homosexuals, beyond simply regarding homosexual behaviour as sinful ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2009 6:57 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by mike the wiz, posted 09-13-2009 6:23 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 81 by mike the wiz, posted 09-13-2009 6:48 AM PaulK has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 54 of 152 (523426)
09-10-2009 7:39 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by mike the wiz
09-10-2009 6:51 AM


Re: No Contradiction, Logic, or Morality Here
mike the wiz writes:
I think that person you talked about, or a person like that can't have the Holy Spirit. Personally, I just don't see how when all that is revealed is hatred of a certain group, or the use of the bible to only justify his position rather than try and find out what it means.
It was recently pointed out that, you name it, someone has created porn about it. In the same way with the Bible, you name it, someone has used the Bible to justify it. Slavery, rape, murder, lust, all have Biblical justifications.
Some Biblical interpretations are more widely shared than others, but popularity changes over time, and there seems no objective way of determining which interpretations are correct. Bible-based beliefs, indeed religious beliefs of almost any sort, are social/cultural, not objective. This is all just a reflection of the innate nature of man. We are very creative, and we have little trouble inventing justifications for what we want to believe.
One day the charismatic Pentecostal preacher Carlton Pearson received a message from God that the movement had been misinterpreting the Bible, that God's message was actually one of inclusion of all in heaven. A loving God would not condemn to hell all who have not been born again in Christ, and the Bible says this. 1st Timothy 4:9 says, "We have our hope set on the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially those who believe." And 1st John 2:2 says, "Jesus Christ is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."
Anything you want to believe, support for it can be found in the Bible (and probably in many other very lengthy books), even support for the opposite of one of the foundational beliefs of evangelicalism.
--Percy
PS - Carlton Pearson was declared a heretic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by mike the wiz, posted 09-10-2009 6:51 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by mike the wiz, posted 09-13-2009 6:34 AM Percy has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 152 (523453)
09-10-2009 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Peg
09-08-2009 4:41 AM


Consent
sure animals can consent they've made a whole porn industry out of it
I think what he's referring to is legal consent. A child can technically consent to sexual relations, but not legally. The rationale goes that they do not yet have the maturity or mental capacity to fully understand what they are consenting to.
Obviously that applies to animals as well.

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Peg, posted 09-08-2009 4:41 AM Peg has not replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 152 (523456)
09-10-2009 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by mike the wiz
09-08-2009 2:14 PM


This is why people think we have "homophobia", if we pick out certain folk, but I should also mention that staright-sex fornication is not permissable under the New Testament and many christians will partake in this.
The bible doesn't classify or categorize sin in an order of precedence. That implies that all sexual sin is the same in God's eyes, yet many Christians seem to make out homosexuality to be worse than adultery or other forms of sexual sin.
My conclusion is that sin can only be dealt with internally. No human solution will work, or none-Theist solution. until a rapist DESIRES righteousness, he will continue to obey his sinful nature.
There are countless unbelievers who are not rapists and many others who have rehabilitated without the need for God, so that your outcome does not follow the premise. While I would agree that it is an internal decison, it is a personal decison of some sort but not necessarily a spiritual decison.

"The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." - Samual Adams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by mike the wiz, posted 09-08-2009 2:14 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2930 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


Message 57 of 152 (523474)
09-10-2009 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Hyroglyphx
09-10-2009 12:51 PM


Hyroglyphyx writes:
The bible doesn't classify or categorize sin in an order of precedence. That implies that all sexual sin is the same in God's eyes, yet many Christians seem to make out homosexuality to be worse than adultery or other forms of sexual sin.
Case in point: The 'gentleman' (I am using the term sarcastically, I have a hard time considering him human let alone anything else) I referred to earlier made a Youtube video addressing the fact that one of his family friends is a reformed pedophile who did prison time. He made the atrocious claim that what his friend did was bad and was a crime but not as bad as homosexuality.
He knows his friend is a Christian and has repented and therefore trusts him completely around his daughters. A homosexual, however, can almost never repent and he has stated he would do whatever it takes to keep them away from his family. He then added (as if he needs to make people despise him more!) that male-female pedophilia and rape are both greatly exaggerated and that so-called victims are conditioned by social services to make it seem worse than it really was!
The central point is, in my opinion, that if you are the kind of person who will cross that line and do harm to others against their will (a definition of immorality I accept) you will do so regardless of your belief system. You will either reconcile it within your beliefs or do it anyway then feel sorry (or pretend to).

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-10-2009 12:51 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 58 of 152 (523475)
09-10-2009 3:42 PM


A Record?
I wonder what the record length is for a thread where the originator posts just once?
--Percy
{Off-topic. The chain of replies have been hidden. Use "peek" if you wish to see them. - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Off-topic note.

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Modulous, posted 09-10-2009 4:41 PM Percy has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 59 of 152 (523485)
09-10-2009 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Percy
09-10-2009 3:42 PM


OFF-TOPIC
{Off-topic material hidden - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Percy, posted 09-10-2009 3:42 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Percy, posted 09-10-2009 4:52 PM Modulous has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 60 of 152 (523487)
09-10-2009 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Modulous
09-10-2009 4:41 PM


OFF-TOPIC
{Off-topic material hidden - Adminnemooseus}
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : See above.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Modulous, posted 09-10-2009 4:41 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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