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Author Topic:   Why is it that God couldn't have made Creation with evolution?
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2152 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 31 of 167 (523388)
09-09-2009 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Coyote
09-09-2009 7:24 PM


Re: God using evolution
quote:
You are applying one particular religious belief (out of tens of thousands of differing religious beliefs) to a scientific question.
BTW, it was not "Apologetics" but "Blissful" in the OP who specifically directed this thread toward this "one particular religious belief":
Blissful writes:
Church teachings have changed over time as the Magesterium have reinterpreted the Bible and as such I feel it would be possible that the Bible is the Truth written in a manner suited for the people it was intended to be read by: not the scientific Man of today but the spiritual Man of the past. It seems a stretch to take the Bibles word as complete scientific fact if you then reject other scientific fact and evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Coyote, posted 09-09-2009 7:24 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Apologetics
Junior Member (Idle past 5326 days)
Posts: 19
From: Michigan
Joined: 09-08-2009


Message 32 of 167 (523391)
09-09-2009 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by anglagard
09-09-2009 2:13 AM


Re: A Few Simple Questions
If you would please do the PNT for me, since I do not know how to do one. Then we all can resume the debate there.

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Apologetics
Junior Member (Idle past 5326 days)
Posts: 19
From: Michigan
Joined: 09-08-2009


Message 33 of 167 (523512)
09-10-2009 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by anglagard
09-09-2009 2:13 AM


Re: A Few Simple Questions
anglagard writes:
"Which of the over 3000 versions of the Bible is the official word of God? Last time I asked this question (Message 1), IIRC only two fundamentalists had the guts to answer. Do you?"
The 3,000 versions you are referring to are translations. This means they carry the same message, just worded different. There are 24,000 Greek New Testament manuscripts that have been found. There is only a 2% variation in them. This variation is changing the name Jesus, to the Anointed One, or Messiah, etc. Same thing different words.
anglagard:=anglagard writes:
"It is a falsehood to state that Juvenal, Suetonius or Tacitus never said anything bad about the Romans, or Froissart about the French or English, and that is just a start right off the top of my head. You must be totally unfamiliar with all historic writing."
I have heard of Juvenal, Suetonius, and Tacitus but I have not read their work. But by the description that you have given they spoke bad about their culture or nation, not about themselves. My point was speaking of ones own flaws.
Edited by Apologetics, : No reason given.

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Apologetics
Junior Member (Idle past 5326 days)
Posts: 19
From: Michigan
Joined: 09-08-2009


Message 34 of 167 (523515)
09-10-2009 9:00 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by hooah212002
09-09-2009 1:43 AM


Re: God using evolution
Hooah212002 writes:
"tis a mighty fine use of circular reasoning you have right there."
Your right. We will have to finish the debate on the inerrancy of scripture before I could prove my point that God inspired scripture. But you can see how with my presuppositions that I see the Bible as inspired by God.

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Apologetics
Junior Member (Idle past 5326 days)
Posts: 19
From: Michigan
Joined: 09-08-2009


Message 35 of 167 (523516)
09-10-2009 9:06 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Otto Tellick
09-09-2009 3:45 AM


Re: "The authority of a message"?
Otto Tellick writes:
"Are you familiar with the game called "telephone" (or "gossip")? After a message has been whispered across a chain of, say, 20 people, the last person in the chain says it out loud to the group. Then the first person says what the original message was, and everyone laughs about the nature and extent of change in the message."
There is a problem with your telephone analogy. First it is a closed system. One person is whispering to another then to another and so on. In real life there is a form of checks and balance. Those who know the truth are there to hear the mixed messaged and correct that message.
Second the Hebrew scribes were very particular in their translations. Every letter in the Hebrew alphabet has a numerical value. When a manuscript was copied they would add up the numerical value of the original to that of the copy. If the two did not match, the copy was burned.
Edited by Apologetics, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Otto Tellick, posted 09-09-2009 3:45 AM Otto Tellick has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Otto Tellick, posted 09-10-2009 11:08 PM Apologetics has replied

  
Apologetics
Junior Member (Idle past 5326 days)
Posts: 19
From: Michigan
Joined: 09-08-2009


Message 36 of 167 (523517)
09-10-2009 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by kbertsche
09-09-2009 1:20 PM


Re: God using evolution
quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
In Matthew 19:4-5 it says, And He (Jesus) answered and said to them, Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female.(NKJ) Jesus says here that he made Adam and Eve in the beginning, not millions of years later. The word beginning in the Greek is arche, strong’s # G746, which speaks of origin and the extremity of a thing.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
kbertsche writes:
The question is, "What did Jesus mean by the beginning? Beginning of what?" This is answered by the context...
Consider Mark 10:6 as a cross reference, But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. Here it states beginning of the creation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by kbertsche, posted 09-09-2009 1:20 PM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by kbertsche, posted 09-11-2009 2:23 AM Apologetics has replied

  
Apologetics
Junior Member (Idle past 5326 days)
Posts: 19
From: Michigan
Joined: 09-08-2009


Message 37 of 167 (523519)
09-10-2009 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by kbertsche
09-09-2009 1:29 PM


Re: God using evolution
kbertsche writes:
Note that the text uses the word "good," not "perfect." Hebrew has a word for "perfect" and this was pointedly not used.
The Hebrew language is much larger than ours. One word in the Hebrew has more than one English meaning. The word that is translated as good in the English, speaks of best and excellence in the Hebrew. Strong’s # H2896

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 Message 29 by kbertsche, posted 09-09-2009 1:29 PM kbertsche has seen this message but not replied

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 Message 41 by Otto Tellick, posted 09-10-2009 11:43 PM Apologetics has replied

  
Apologetics
Junior Member (Idle past 5326 days)
Posts: 19
From: Michigan
Joined: 09-08-2009


Message 38 of 167 (523524)
09-10-2009 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Coyote
09-09-2009 7:24 PM


Re: God using evolution
Coyote writes:
"If believers can't agree among themselves, and can't produce empirical evidence in support of their beliefs, why should their beliefs be considered in any manner in scientific discussions?"
One of many empirical evidences for a Biblical world view is this: There are billions of people on this earth at this moment, not to mention how many people there would be counting the past. Yet humans have only reproduced humans. Same with livestock. That is repeatable and experimental evidence. Do you have empirical, evidence for your worldview?
Edited by Apologetics, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Coyote, posted 09-09-2009 7:24 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Coyote, posted 09-10-2009 10:20 PM Apologetics has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2127 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 39 of 167 (523529)
09-10-2009 10:20 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Apologetics
09-10-2009 9:28 PM


Re: God using evolution
One of many empirical evidences for a Biblical world view is this: There are billions of people on this earth at this moment, not to mention how many people there would be counting the past. Yet humans have only reproduced humans. Same with livestock. That is repeatable and experimental evidence. Do you have empirical, evidence for your worldview?
Yes, unfortunately for those who hold your worldview.
All of it.
There is as of yet no empirical evidence for the existence of deities.
And the "humans have only reproduced humans" works only as far as Homo erectus or Homo habilis, prior to which there are non-human ancestors. And if you go back far enough there are ape-like ancestors, then monkey-like ancestors (more accurately, ape-toothed monkeys). That's what the fossil record and genetic studies have shown, supported by a myriad of other sciences.
"Same with livestock" runs into the same problem. You go back a ways and you find different species, then different genera. This too is supported by the fossil record and genetic studies.
Unfortunately your worldview, essentially a religious belief, is not supported by empirical evidence.
In fact, it is contradicted by many other religious beliefs, of which there are perhaps some 4,000 (with up to 40,000 subdivisions).
If you are unable to agree among yourselves on the specific tenets of religious belief--and have no empirical evidence with which to iron out your differences, why should scientists--or anyone else--accept your beliefs as accurate?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Apologetics, posted 09-10-2009 9:28 PM Apologetics has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Apologetics, posted 09-11-2009 8:12 PM Coyote has replied
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Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2352 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 40 of 167 (523533)
09-10-2009 11:08 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Apologetics
09-10-2009 9:06 PM


Re: "The authority of a message"?
Apologetics writes:
There is a problem with your telephone analogy. First it is a closed system. One person is whispering to another then to another and so on. In real life there is a form of checks and balance. Those who know the truth are there to hear the mixed messaged and correct that message.
And yet there is still a problem with your response. It doesn't really answer the core point of my post. "Those who know the truth" (regarding scripture) have not been agreeing with each other very well over the centuries, and have been "correcting the message" in contradictory, mutually exclusive ways. You could certainly say that people doing science have been disagreeing a lot with each other too, but there's a crucial difference between these two groups of disagreeing parties:
When the scientists disagree with each other, they have a very clear and decisive method for resolving the issue: form a question (or set of questions) that will draw explicit attention to the differences between the opposing views (theories or hypotheses), and determine the means necessary for collecting evidence and observations that will serve to answer those questions. Assuming that the questions have been well thought out, and the observations have been made with adequate diligence, the evidence comes in and the disagreements are settled (at least in part -- some details may remain in dispute, but each new set of observations leads to some new amount of consensus).
When people are disagreeing about their faiths, their interpretations of scripture, their notions of God, God's will, God's judgment, etc, etc, what is the basis or process for resolving their disputes? Based on observed evidence (history), there's some variety of approaches, mostly involving various forms of schism, concomitant with either physical separation, social isolation, or sustained (sometimes violent) conflict.
Second the Hebrew scribes were very particular in their translations. Every letter in the Hebrew alphabet has a numerical value. When a manuscript was copied they would add up the numerical value of the original to that of the copy. If the two did not match, the copy was burned.
And yet this meticulous attention to orthographic detail has nothing to do with (and has done nothing to limit) the rampant divergence of interpretations of the text. This is due in part to changing conditions and changed awareness, as demonstrated by the divisions among Jewish communities (orthodox vs. reformed vs. ...).
But it also due in large part to the fact that the text itself is intrinsically far too vague in too many ways, and this vagueness is amplified by the extent of linguistic difference (to say nothing of social, cultural and intellectual differences) between the original writers and anyone alive today.
I find it striking that the YEC's consistently try to make their views seem credible by saying "We are looking at the same evidence as the scientists are -- we just interpret it differently." Well, why not? That's how they handle scripture, too! So it must seem natural to treat objective evidence with the same "flexibility" that they apply when deciphering bible passages, in order to extract their various and incompatible notions of "fact".
Edited by Otto Tellick, : No reason given.

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Apologetics, posted 09-10-2009 9:06 PM Apologetics has replied

Replies to this message:
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Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2352 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 41 of 167 (523537)
09-10-2009 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Apologetics
09-10-2009 9:19 PM


Re: God using evolution
Apologetics writes:
The Hebrew language is much larger than ours.
"Larger"?? In what dimensions? Measured in what units? Did you actually intend some other term? ("Smaller" is the first thing that would have come to my mind, if we're talking about vocabulary size.)
One word in the Hebrew has more than one English meaning.
Well, duh. That's true in the other direction as well (leaving aside the English words that really have no equivalent in ancient Hebrew, and have been adopted wholesale as direct borrowings from English into modern Hebrew). In fact, it applies in both directions when comparing any two languages. Anyway, how does this relate to any notion of relative "largeness"?
And how does any of that relate to a willingness (vs. a reticence) to admit an interpretation of scripture that does not explicitly contradict (is not directly falsified by) objective evidence in geology, astronomy, physics, chemistry and biology? In other words, do your particular views about the linguistics of the Bible allow you any means for accepting (as opposed to denying) plain truths about the physical reality we occupy?

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
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kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2152 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 42 of 167 (523550)
09-11-2009 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Apologetics
09-10-2009 9:13 PM


Re: God using evolution
quote:
Consider Mark 10:6 as a cross reference, But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. Here it states beginning of the creation.
This is a parallel passage to Mt 19:4-5. My comments of Message 28 apply just as well to this passage. In context, then, Mk 10:6 means "the beginning of the creation of mankind."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Apologetics, posted 09-10-2009 9:13 PM Apologetics has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Apologetics, posted 09-11-2009 8:30 PM kbertsche has replied

  
Apologetics
Junior Member (Idle past 5326 days)
Posts: 19
From: Michigan
Joined: 09-08-2009


Message 43 of 167 (523669)
09-11-2009 8:12 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Coyote
09-10-2009 10:20 PM


Re: God using evolution
Coyote writes:
And the "humans have only reproduced humans" works only as far as Homo erectus or Homo habilis, prior to which there are non-human ancestors. And if you go back far enough there are ape-like ancestors, then monkey-like ancestors (more accurately, ape-toothed monkeys). That's what the fossil record and genetic studies have shown, supported by a myriad of other sciences.
Empirical: Based on or characterized by observation and experiment instead of theory.
Please give a better example of your worldviews experimental evidence. What experiments have people with your presuppositions done that has observed monkeys reproducing humans. You must have some since you say you have "empirical" evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Coyote, posted 09-10-2009 10:20 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by DrJones*, posted 09-11-2009 8:21 PM Apologetics has replied
 Message 51 by Coyote, posted 09-11-2009 11:09 PM Apologetics has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2285
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 7.4


Message 44 of 167 (523671)
09-11-2009 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Apologetics
09-11-2009 8:12 PM


Re: God using evolution
What experiments have people with your presuppositions done that has observed monkeys reproducing humans.
Where in the post does he claim that monkies reproduced humans.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
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Apologetics
Junior Member (Idle past 5326 days)
Posts: 19
From: Michigan
Joined: 09-08-2009


Message 45 of 167 (523674)
09-11-2009 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by kbertsche
09-11-2009 2:23 AM


Re: God using evolution
kbertsche writes:
This is a parallel passage to Mt 19:4-5. My comments of Re: God using evolution (Message 28) apply just as well to this passage. In context, then, Mk 10:6 means "the beginning of the creation of mankind."
You cannot change the scripture to meet your worldview. If Mark wanted to speak of the creation of mankind he would have said that. Instead he said "But from the beginning of creation...". The first step in Hermeneutics (study of scripture) is to allow scripture to interpret scripture.
As a literal interpretation this passage fits with the rest of scripture, but with your interpretation you must reinterpret other verses like the first chapter of Genesis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by kbertsche, posted 09-11-2009 2:23 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
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