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Author Topic:   If you were God, what kind of God would you be?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 211 of 247 (522619)
09-04-2009 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Drosophilla
09-04-2009 9:21 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
Drosophilla writes:
You're a real classic Peg I have to hand you that...tell me if you recognise the tyrannical abuse of power in human individuals such as Pol Pot, Stalin and Hitler...how does it completely escape you when your God does exactly the same?
hey dont laugh, you were the one who said the atheists act with morals
I do understand that there is tyrannical abuses of power, but God does not deal with anyone this way. He executes his judicial decisions in a righteous way.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Drosophilla, posted 09-04-2009 9:21 AM Drosophilla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by hooah212002, posted 09-04-2009 9:33 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 215 by Drosophilla, posted 09-04-2009 9:58 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 216 of 247 (522640)
09-04-2009 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by Coragyps
09-04-2009 9:53 AM


Re: God's Morality
Coragyps writes:
Sure He has! The Russian-Circassian War, the Albigensian Crusade, the Korean War, the Paraguayan War of the Triple Alliance - I'm just not telling which side He took in those. How the hell do you know, Peg, whether God has supported a war that isn't recorded in your Book?
becasue Jesus showed that the purpose of the kingdom was to bring about the end of the wars of the nations.
Jesus showed that all who would live under the kingdom arrangement would do so by living in peace and loving their enemies.
Also, God does not take sides in wars because he views all mankind as one group, not as separate nations. he does not suffer from nationalism the way we do. He is not partial.
Coragyps writes:
And answer me about Abraham and Isaac. If God asked Abe to "kill me a son," why can't he ask you?
This was asked of Abraham, but it proved to be a test of faith and not an actual request. God has never asked it from anyone else and he never will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Coragyps, posted 09-04-2009 9:53 AM Coragyps has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by hooah212002, posted 09-04-2009 10:50 AM Peg has replied
 Message 225 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-08-2009 8:58 PM Peg has replied
 Message 231 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-10-2009 11:53 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 218 of 247 (522645)
09-04-2009 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Straggler
09-04-2009 9:57 AM


Re: God's Morality
Straggler writes:
So all soldiers are immoral according to you?
i did not say anything about soldiers being immoral. I asked you how 'putting your swords away & loving your enemies' applies to soldiers
are you judging them as immoral becuase they have not put their swords away?
Straggler writes:
I want to know how I can know gods objective absolute morality.
Gods objective absolute morality is summed up in 5 words
"Love your neighbour as yourself"
if we all did this, then there would be no wars. Love is Gods absolute morality.
Straggler writes:
But all the answers you give me suggest that in practical terms your answers are the same are those that moral relativists would give.
I.e. go with your conscience, morality is a product of culture and circumstance etc. etc. etc.
i didnt realise that i was coming across that way

This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Straggler, posted 09-04-2009 9:57 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by Straggler, posted 09-08-2009 7:02 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 219 of 247 (522647)
09-04-2009 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by hooah212002
09-04-2009 10:50 AM


Re: God's Morality
hooah212002 writes:
So the whole deal about the Israelites being the chosen people is bullshit? Allegorical?
actually, anyone could join the isrealites in worship. The nation was not exclusive to natural born jews.
So, even though God chose that nation to represent him, he did not make approach to him exclusive to them only. He accepted proselytes from all nations.
After the establishment of christianity, then Christ became the chosen means of approach to God and any man from any nation could become a christian also. So he was never impartial, he merely used 1 nation as the mean of approach to him in ancient times.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by hooah212002, posted 09-04-2009 10:50 AM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 220 of 247 (522648)
09-04-2009 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Drosophilla
09-04-2009 9:58 AM


Re: Rape in the Bible
Drosophilla writes:
But your God stands accused of the horrors he had comitted by his own words/actions - the words of the bible.
'accused' yes, understood - no.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Drosophilla, posted 09-04-2009 9:58 AM Drosophilla has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Drosophilla, posted 09-04-2009 11:46 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 223 of 247 (522794)
09-04-2009 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by bluescat48
09-04-2009 1:53 PM


Re: Rape in the Bible
bluescat48 writes:
Chose war? They were attacked? God in this case was just like Hitler, Tojo, Stalin, Pol Pot, Bin Laden or George W. Bush, A warmonger.
explain the cananite cities of Gibeon and Chephirah and Beeroth and Kiriath-jearim.
the cheifs of these cities sent a delegation to request peace with Isreal...they did trick Joshua because they told them they were from a far away land, but even after they were found out in their lie, Isreal kept the covenent in place and did not war with them... infact, when other cannanite cities heard about how these ones had made peace with Isreal, they wanted to kill them. Who saved them from death?
The isrealites protected those Canaanite cities from other cannanites who were intent on destroying them. This is because God always acts in righteousness, mercy and Justice.
You can read the whole account in Joshua chpt 9.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by bluescat48, posted 09-04-2009 1:53 PM bluescat48 has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 226 of 247 (523259)
09-09-2009 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by Straggler
09-08-2009 7:02 PM


Re: God's Morality
Straggler writes:
No.I am asking you how I can access this objective and absolute morality that you tell me exists in order to answer such questions?
absolute morality only works if everyone agrees what it is and to abide by it. Our world shows that they do not.
Jesus provided a perfect model for absolute morality - 'Love'
If we all treated each other with love, then absolute morality could exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by Straggler, posted 09-08-2009 7:02 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by Phage0070, posted 09-10-2009 7:15 PM Peg has replied
 Message 243 by Straggler, posted 09-11-2009 6:40 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 227 of 247 (523263)
09-09-2009 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Hyroglyphx
09-08-2009 8:58 PM


Re: God's Morality
Hyroglyphx writes:
That's an interesting theory considering half of the bible is about how God is completely partial to Israel, his chosen one's, the apple of his eye, etc, etc. He commanded Israel to destroy any nation that got in the way of his plan, any nation who he deemed sinful and corrupt, any nation that worshiped false gods, including Israelites itself which defiled Israel's purpose.
but he actually wasnt partial to them. The law allowed for people of any nation to join isreal in the worship of God.
The reason why 1 nation was chosen back then was because God was sending his son who had to be born into a nation who worshiped God in the correct way.
The purpose of the Messiah was to atone for the sin of Adam so that All of Adams descendents could have an approach to God. Once that Messiah arrived, he stood in place of the Mosaic law so that all nations could worship God thru him.
So the reality is that Isreal was chosen for a specific purpose, not because God thought they were better but because true worship needed a model and they were the ones chosen to model it.
However, now that we have Jesus, he has become the model for worship and so we follow him instead.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-08-2009 8:58 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-09-2009 10:13 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 229 of 247 (523409)
09-10-2009 3:56 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Hyroglyphx
09-09-2009 10:13 AM


Re: God's Morality
Hyroglyphx writes:
We're talking about how he is partial to Israel and Israel's interests.
do you really think that God would send his son to a people who participated in vile acts and who practiced satanic forms of worship?
he needed a group of people who knew him and knew how to worship him acceptable, on top of that, he wanted to send his son to a clean, holy pure nation because his son was holy, clean and pure. He chose Isreal because they were the descendents of his friend Abraham. So he sent them his laws and prepared them for the arrival of the Messiah.
This is why the mosaic law was so strict when it came to justice. The nation needed to be clean from everything that God considered immoral.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-09-2009 10:13 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Perdition, posted 09-10-2009 11:14 AM Peg has replied
 Message 232 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-10-2009 12:02 PM Peg has not replied
 Message 233 by bluescat48, posted 09-10-2009 6:07 PM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 236 of 247 (523540)
09-11-2009 12:19 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Phage0070
09-10-2009 7:15 PM


Re: God's Morality
Phage0070 writes:
What you are proposing is an arbitrary theocracy
and whats wrong with theocracy?
At least its consistent and everyone knows what it is. People come and go along with their standards
Gods standards are always stable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Phage0070, posted 09-10-2009 7:15 PM Phage0070 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Phage0070, posted 09-11-2009 1:26 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 239 by bluescat48, posted 09-11-2009 10:02 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 237 of 247 (523542)
09-11-2009 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by Perdition
09-10-2009 11:14 AM


Re: God's Morality
Perdition writes:
Wouldn't it be a better advocation of God's power and rightness if he sent his son (the one he needs to be executed and tortured) to people who didn't know him, and still have him convince a large enough portion of his power and rightness to create a major religion?
He did....they are called Gentiles and the christian church today is mostly made up of gentiles.
And whats more, Jesus didnt even need to be here to bring them into his church.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Perdition, posted 09-10-2009 11:14 AM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by Perdition, posted 09-11-2009 11:54 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 240 of 247 (523586)
09-11-2009 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by bluescat48
09-11-2009 10:02 AM


Re: God's Morality
bluescat writes:
In a Theocracy, only those who adhere to the state Religious sect are true citizens, everyone else is either considered a less that total citizen or is persecuted.
well to be realistic, theocracy is an oxymoron
its impossible to for man to institute what is only institutable by God.
Theocracy means 'God Rule'
how can we say God is ruling if man is the one administering it? Its impossible.
But it wont be impossible if God actually institutes & administers it...then no man will dominate over any other man... all mankind will be answerable to God alone and God will be the one to administer the justice. So those nations who say they are theocratic are not really theorcratic. they are just using religion to administer their own rule.
God is not really ruling them.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by bluescat48, posted 09-11-2009 10:02 AM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Phage0070, posted 09-11-2009 1:54 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 244 of 247 (523714)
09-12-2009 6:50 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Perdition
09-11-2009 11:54 AM


Re: God's Morality
Perdition writes:
Ok, here's a contradiction. You said that God wouldn't send his son to unbelievers...then you claim he did.
in the first instance I was referring to his son being 'born and bought up' within a nation. He was born into Isreal and so the nation needed to be worthy of that honor.
Its a bit like if the queen was coming to visit you. You'd probably clean the house from top to bottom to make your home worthy of her visit. God did the same with the nation he sent his son to.
in the second instance, Jesus was not physically among people...by this stage he was back in heaven, so the circumstances were completely different. People would have to come to him through their faith in him, he didnt have to dwell physically with anyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Perdition, posted 09-11-2009 11:54 AM Perdition has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 245 of 247 (523716)
09-12-2009 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Phage0070
09-11-2009 1:54 PM


Re: God's Morality
Phage0070 writes:
elaborate on how a theocracy would be a good idea without fundamental changes to reality as we know it.
if true theocracy was in place, things would change dramatically. The reality we know today: crime, sickness, starvation, pollution, war etc will be things of the past. They are the very problems that God and Jesus will remove. Jesus showed that he had the power to cure the sick, to feed the hungry, raise the dead and even that he could control the forces of nature. These miracles he performed were fore gleams of what he will do on a much greater scale when his kingdom ruled from heaven.
This was the purpose of gathering people from all nations...it was to prepare people to live as subjects of his heavenly kingdom government.
The prophets spoke of Gods Kingdom as a real government that would take action against this worlds governments and rule in place of them. Daniel 2:44 "The God of heaven will set up a kingdom...and the kingdom will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms and it itself will stand to times indefinite"
So true theocracy cannot begin until all our present governments step aside and acknowledge Gods Kingdom...if they dont, he will remove them himself. Then he will eradicate ALL the worlds problems, reality will be completely different.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by Phage0070, posted 09-11-2009 1:54 PM Phage0070 has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 246 of 247 (523718)
09-12-2009 7:29 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Straggler
09-11-2009 6:40 PM


Re: God's Morality
Straggler writes:
So why do you think an absolute objective morality exists at all?
because it exists with God. As the creator and life giver, he is the ultimate power of authority and therefore has the legal right to impose whatever morality he sees fit.
Straggler writes:
And who decides what is love?
because love is Gods dominant quality, he becomes the standard for what love is. Paul gave a brief summary of what love is:
1Cor 14:4Love is long-suffering and kind. Love is not jealous, it does not brag, does not get puffed up, 5does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked. It does not keep account of the injury. 6It does not rejoice over unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. 7It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails.
Straggler writes:
Then why do you keep preaching morality (rape, genocide etc.etc.) on he basis of what is culturally acceptable at any given time?
rape is against Gods law in the bible, the soldiers of isreal were not raping captive women... the warfare that occurred in Isreal in bible times was always for the sake of righteousness and justice. when children die as a result of war its not because God thought it would be good to kill children, but because the leaders and family heads of those nations chose to go to war out of rebellion and hatred. Its not genocide though, not when God makes the way out for those who want it and those who seek it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Straggler, posted 09-11-2009 6:40 PM Straggler has not replied

  
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