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Author Topic:   Where did Earth's Iron core come from and how did the mantle become molten?
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 56 of 120 (523898)
09-13-2009 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by obvious Child
09-09-2009 4:29 PM


Re: Since I'm the guy being discussed, here's my 2 cents...
obvious Child writes:
Please keep on topic. You and the Bible argue the Earth was not molten. Therefore how did the iron core and mantle which we can measure the temperatures of become molten?
can you provide verses in the bible which state that the earth was not molten??

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by obvious Child, posted 09-09-2009 4:29 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Coragyps, posted 09-13-2009 9:08 AM Peg has replied
 Message 66 by obvious Child, posted 09-13-2009 5:06 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 57 of 120 (523901)
09-13-2009 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Rahvin
09-09-2009 7:40 PM


Re: Please Stay On Topic
Rahvin writes:
What is you evidence supporting the sudden appearance of the Sun and all other celestial bodies 6-10,000 years ago, as opposed to their continued existence for billions of years? How do you avoid violating the conservation of mass/energy? By what mechanism does the sudden appearance occur? What testable predictions does your model make, so that we can test your accuracy?
The planet’s coming into existence is recounted in the Bible with the simple statement: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Ge 1:1)
This could easily be understood that the earth was in existence with the rest of the universe, the sun the moon the stars etc. Just how long ago the universe was created is not stated in the Bible. Therefore, there is no basis for anyone to take issue with scientific calculations of the age of the planet. According to the bible it was created by God along with the rest of the heavens/universe.
As to time, the Scriptures are more definite about the six creative days of the Genesis account. These days have to do, not with the creation of earth’s matter or material, but with the arranging and preparing of it for habitation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Rahvin, posted 09-09-2009 7:40 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Coragyps, posted 09-13-2009 9:12 AM Peg has replied
 Message 60 by Archangel, posted 09-13-2009 9:13 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 62 of 120 (523912)
09-13-2009 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Coragyps
09-13-2009 9:08 AM


Re: Since I'm the guy being discussed, here's my 2 cents...
Coragyps writes:
But Genesis 1:9 does have the dry land all stirred up among the waters (the waters below the firmament, now), so I don't think the land could have been much hotter than boiling. Certainly not molten.
im not sure what you mean by this
volcanos are erupting all the time under the sea and on the land and it has no bearing on the inner core or its temperature.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Coragyps, posted 09-13-2009 9:08 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 63 of 120 (523914)
09-13-2009 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Coragyps
09-13-2009 9:12 AM


Re: Please Stay On Topic
coragyps writes:
"Easily" if you don't read on to verse 16-17 where the Sun and Moon and stars were created and stck onto the firmament on Day #4.
It's your book, Peg - read it.
i have read it and it also describes what earth’s condition was just before that first day began: Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep; and God’s active force was moving to and fro over the surface of the waters.Genesis 1:2.
so the first verse says God created the heavens and the earth.
the second line says the earth was formless and waste, other translations say it was empty and void when God began working on it.
or IOW, It was an existing planet along with all the other planets in the universe, THEN God began to prepare it for habitation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Coragyps, posted 09-13-2009 9:12 AM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Coragyps, posted 09-13-2009 10:15 PM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 64 of 120 (523917)
09-13-2009 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by Percy
09-13-2009 9:21 AM


Re: Please Stay On Topic
Percy writes:
How could God have created the heavens and the Earth if they already existed? How could they already exist before the beginning?
The verses in genesis are very specific and they are refering to two different times. We know the universe had a beginning. And Vs 1 is addressing that point, that in the beginning of creation, God made the heavens and the earth. The universe as we know it.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"
the beginning of making the earth inhabitable is being spoken of in Vs2. "Now the earth was formless and waste and Gods spirit was moving to and fro over the waters"
They are two very different things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Percy, posted 09-13-2009 9:21 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Percy, posted 09-13-2009 9:55 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 70 of 120 (524013)
09-14-2009 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by Percy
09-13-2009 9:55 AM


Re: Please Stay On Topic
Percy writes:
Oh, I see, you're referring to the creationist argument that there's a great span of time between verses 1 and 2. That's a pretty strained interpretation, isn't it? Isn't it really just a post facto reinterpretation of those verses in an attempt at reconciliation with the facts of modern cosmology, astronomy and geology?
no, actually its more to do with an improved understanding of the ancient languages
modern scholars have learn a fair bit about the ancient hebrew language, information that was previously unknown until archaeology began to be discovered that shed light on it.
the word Yohm (day) was used in various ways, it could literally mean some time in the past such as 'in the day of Noah' who lived for much longer then 1 day. It can also mean several days such as 'the day of harvest' and the harvest spanned over a week in ancient isreal.
And science has also added to an improved understanding...many people who study the bible have taken on board that the earth was not made in 6 literal days and they fully accept science in this regard. The improved understanding of hebrew reinforces it and vice versa.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Percy, posted 09-13-2009 9:55 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Percy, posted 09-14-2009 7:50 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 71 of 120 (524017)
09-14-2009 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by obvious Child
09-13-2009 5:06 PM


Re: Since I'm the guy being discussed, here's my 2 cents...
obvious child writes:
Does 'void and empty' convey molten to you?
no it doesnt
obvious child writes:
Empty by definition means "1 a : containing nothing" and void means "vacant" which begs the question of where did the iron core come from?
so the 'vacant' could mean vacant of life, right? It could also mean vacant of trees, or plants, or animals. If you see a vacant lot of land, there is generally nothing on it, no house for instance which is why its called a 'vacant lot'
obvious child writes:
Furthermore, as Archangel explicitly stated as in the record of this thread, he believes the Earth was "an old dead rock." How did an old dead rock become molten?
whether it was or not is a matter of opinion and speculation...the bible does not go into those sorts of details.
Personally i believe the planet was just like any other planet with its own special features...molten lava in the inner core is one of them. Perhaps archangel didnt mean it was a literal rock floating through space, but was using that image to imply that it was at one time a large lifeless mass.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by obvious Child, posted 09-13-2009 5:06 PM obvious Child has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 72 of 120 (524021)
09-14-2009 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Coragyps
09-13-2009 10:15 PM


Re: Please Stay On Topic
Coragyps writes:
That being God's house and the house for people, animals, etc. The fourth day is when the sun, moon, and stars were made and stuck to the firmament. Read your book. That's what it says.
i dont believe that your interpretation is correct, thats not really what it says. Its not saying that the sun and moon was created on the forth day
Previously, on the first day, the expression "Let light come to be" was used. The Hebrew word there used for light is ohr, meaning light in a general sense.
But on the fourth day, the Hebrew word changes to maohr, which means the SOURCE of the light. ie, the sun.
On the first day diffused light evidently shone through the cloud cover, but the sources of that light could not have been seen by an earthly observer. Now, on this fourth day, things apparently changed and the cloud cover dispersed to allow the sun and moon to become visible from an earthly perspective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Coragyps, posted 09-13-2009 10:15 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 75 of 120 (524032)
09-14-2009 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Percy
09-14-2009 7:50 AM


Re: Please Stay On Topic
Percy writes:
Almost anything written can be interpreted in various ways, but isn't it interesting that the interpretation of a gap didn't appear until it become necessary in order to reduce the number of conflicts with modern science.
you have to take into consideration that genesis was written about 4.000 years ago...and moses used a word that indicated long lengths of time, but modern translators were limited in their understanding of hebrew
somethings gotta be said for science in this regard, as it certainly did make people think twice about their translations. thankfully further examination shed light on their error.
Percy writes:
This means that verse 2 is talking about a time 6,000 years ago, and it says the Earth is formless and void.
well actually not quite
the six thousand odd years marks the creation of 'man'
If you use the chronology of the bible, you can actually go back to the birth year of Adam as being 4026BCE
So the length of each creative day was not necesarily 1,000 years...that would be ludicrous to believe or try to apply to the genesis account. The creative days could have spanned many hundreds of thousands, even millions of years which is more likely and im sure you'd agree.
remember the word Yohm is used to represent 'lengths of time'...that means they could have been any length of time. Genesis does say 'there came to be morning and their came to be evening a first/2nd/3rd day etc' but in light of ancient hebrew, we (jw's) understand it this term to mean 'the beginning and the end of something new.' Similar to how we might say 'a new day dawned'
throughout the Bible, 'Day' is divided up into natural periods: the morning twilight or morning darkness, just before the day’s beginning, the rising of the sun or dawning, the morning , noon or midday, the time of the sunset etc etc...there are many
all these different times are called by the same heberw term 'yohm'
so its only reasonable to conclude that it is the same in the genesis account.
Percy writes:
how did the Earth end up with a molten outer core and a solid but even hotter inner core?
i wouldnt even like to speculate
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Percy, posted 09-14-2009 7:50 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Percy, posted 09-14-2009 8:56 AM Peg has replied
 Message 77 by Arphy, posted 09-14-2009 9:17 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 83 of 120 (524227)
09-15-2009 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Percy
09-14-2009 8:56 AM


Re: Please Stay On Topic
Percy writes:
So now that scholarship is so much more sophisticated, Christians are all in agreement about the interpretation of scripture?
not at all lol
many prefer to stay with their theology...but that doesnt help anyone.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Percy, posted 09-14-2009 8:56 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by Percy, posted 09-15-2009 7:56 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 84 of 120 (524229)
09-15-2009 4:58 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Arphy
09-14-2009 9:17 AM


Re: Please Stay On Topic
Arphy writes:
"And he answering said to them, ‘Did ye not read, that He who made them, from the beginning a male and a female made them," Mt 19:4
please note "the beginning". Also Mr 10:6 "but from the beginning of the creation, a male and a female God did make them;" i.e. the beginning and the creation of Adam and Eve are around the same time period.
this does not, and cannot mean adam and eve were created when the universe was created in the beginning
do you think they floated around in space while God got the earth ready?
Arphy writes:
What basis do have for saying this?
well considering each 'day' dealt with a different type of work being performed, it is perfectly logical to put it that way.
On day
1 Light; division between day and night Ge 1:3-5
2 Expanse, a division between waters
beneath the expanse and waters above it Ge 1:6-8
3 Dry land; vegetation Ge 1:9-13
4 Heavenly luminaries become discernible
from earth Ge 1:14-19
5 Aquatic souls and flying creatures Ge 1:20-23
6 Land animals; man Ge 1:24-31
Man was definitely created last which is logical because man and animals need certain things to survive, yes?
Arphy writes:
What the...??? Again, what is your basis for this?
Gen 1:1 "In the beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth."
Notice how the earth was created along with the heavens?
Gen 1:2 "Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface..."
Notice how this verse is talking about an earth that is already existing...he described it as 'formless and waste and darkness upon its surface'
If something has a surface, then it must exist, yes?
Arphy writes:
His words indicate nothing of the sort.
his word was 'Yohm'
you can look it up in a hebrew dictionary yourself to find the meaning.
Arphy writes:
In fact everywhere that the word yohm is used in context of evening and morning it always means an ordinary day.
Sometimes the word day is used to indicate a measure of distance, as in the expressions a day’s journey and a sabbath day’s journey. as at Nu 11:31 & Ac 1:12
In prophecy a 'day' is at times used to stand for one year. have a look at Ezekiel 4:6: You must lie upon your right side in the second case, and you must carry the error of the house of Judah forty days. A day for a year, a day for a year, is what I have given you.
its also used with reference to a time period contemporaneous with a particular person, as for example, the days of Noah and the days of Lot. Lu 17:26-30; Isa 1:1.
so Yohm is used in many ways, not only to mean a 24 hour time period, although it can do, its not always used that way as the above scriptures show.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Arphy, posted 09-14-2009 9:17 AM Arphy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by greyseal, posted 09-15-2009 10:58 AM Peg has not replied
 Message 98 by Arphy, posted 09-18-2009 6:42 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 86 of 120 (524234)
09-15-2009 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by Percy
09-15-2009 7:56 AM


Re: Please Stay On Topic
Percy writes:
Christian scholarship has not established that beyond a doubt that's what the verses mean. That interpretation was not a result of scholarship, but a reaction to new developments within science.
i dont necessarily agree with that. It is well established among hebrew scholars that the word used can mean any length of time.
-----------------------------------------------
William Wilson’s Old Testament Word Studies: A day; it is frequently put for time in general, or for a long time; a whole period under consideration ... Day is also put for a particular season or time when any extraordinary event happens.
A Religious Encyclopaedia (Vol. I, p. 613) states: The days of creation were creative days, stages in the process, but not days of twenty-four hours each.Edited by P.Schaff, 1894.

___________________________________________________________
the Hebrew language is what it is and it has been that way for a very long time. The problem is not with the language but with our own interpretations.
If they looked at the bible a bit more closely they would see that the answer is staring them in the face because at Gen 2:4 all six of those days are called ONE day.
Percy writes:
If the Bible actually contained accurate scientific information then Christians should be telling us the scientific discoveries before scientists make them instead of after.
your right, and it might be true if the bible was a science book, but its not and it doesnt claim to be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Percy, posted 09-15-2009 7:56 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Percy, posted 09-15-2009 8:31 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 93 of 120 (524347)
09-16-2009 4:30 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Percy
09-15-2009 8:31 AM


Re: Please Stay On Topic
Percy writes:
The word "day" doesn't appear anywhere in Gen 1:1-2. You're claiming a gap in time of billions of years between verses 1 and 2, remember?
sorry, back in msg 64 i gave an explaination of the first and 2nd verse, but from there it went a bit off topic with regard to interpretation where i used 'day' as an example.
In msg 64, I said that vs 1 is referring to the beginning of the universe which included the earth.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth"
Verse 2 describes something different though, it describes God working on the earth...one of the planets in the universe that was already created...
"Now the earth was formless and waste and Gods spirit was moving to and fro over the waters"
Vs 2 doesnt say that God created the earth because the earth had already been created along with the rest of the universe at some point in the past.
Percy writes:
Then why are you going to the trouble of arguing that Genesis 1:1-2 is telling us accurate scientific information about the origin of the Earth and universe?
to be fair, genesis 1:1 does describe accurate information. It describes a universe that had a beginning. Why is it unscientific to say that the universe had a beginning?
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Percy, posted 09-15-2009 8:31 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Percy, posted 09-16-2009 8:28 AM Peg has replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 97 of 120 (524495)
09-17-2009 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Percy
09-16-2009 8:28 AM


Re: Genesis 1:1-2
Percy writes:
Peg, we're talking about your claimed gap of billions of years between verses 1 and 2 and how this rather odd interpretation wasn't made until science discovered how ancient the Earth and universe are. And ultimately we're seeking how this is consistent with what we know about the Earth's interior.
firstly, the bible does not mention the earths interior so how can we debate about something the bible does not speak of?
2ndly, i explained that it was with an improved understanding of the dead ancient hebrew language that enabled some scholars to understand that Yom does not have to mean 24 hours.
Religious people have read the bible in the language of its translation...for english we have a rendering that says 'day 1, day 2 etc' so its understandable why they considered the length of the day as they knew it. Unfortunately they didnt know the ancient hebrew language so they had nothing with which to compare it to.
I dont deny that science has helped to understand the bible, in fact I think i said so in an earlier post...but the bible isnt reliant on modern science to understand it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Percy, posted 09-16-2009 8:28 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by greyseal, posted 09-18-2009 9:27 AM Peg has not replied

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 4951 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 102 of 120 (524729)
09-18-2009 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Arphy
09-18-2009 6:57 AM


Re: Please Stay On Topic
Arphy writes:
Again the word day does not always mean a 24 hour day. Hence why we read it in context to work out what the author means. The context clearly implies a normal day
i dont think you've really done that with Genesis.
Genesis 2:4 calls all six creative days, one day..."This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time of their being created, in the day that God made the earth and heaven"
not only does it say the six days were one day, but it also includes the creation of the heavens in that one day.
How can this mean a normal 24hour day? Its more speaking about an Era where many events can happen, but all are spoken of as one era.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.
Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Arphy, posted 09-18-2009 6:57 AM Arphy has not replied

  
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