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Author | Topic: Spiritual Death is Not Biblical | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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In various discussions, the concept of spiritual death rises to help explain inconsistencies between Bible authors.
My contention is that the Old Testament prophets and writers of the Torah do not present a concept of spiritual death. I feel that the spiritual death concept is a later concept influenced by Greek philosophers. I’m not even sure that the current usage of the term spiritual death is the same as the Greek concept of material and spiritual. One example of this issue are the verses Exodus 20:5 and Ezekiel 18:20
Exodus 20:5
Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them nor serve them for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me Ezekiel 18:20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him. It has been argued that the punishment in these verses may deal with spiritual death and not real time physical punishment or death.I feel that the verses show a change in the society. The Priestly Exodus verse is corporate oriented and pertains to those who supposedly hate God. Probably written before the fall of the southern kingdom. The later Ezekiel verse deals with individuals and administering punishment.
Zoroastrians and Judaism, to 400 BCE Ezra's laws were presented as Yahweh's laws. This included the traditional eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. The custom of an entire family being considered guilty for the act of any one of its members was discarded in favor of individual responsibility: the father was to continue to have supreme authority within the family, but a father would not be punished for the sins of a son, or a son for the sins of the father. According to the author of John, even the disciples of Jesus associated physical afflictions with sin of the individual or their parents.
John 9:1-41 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" I don’t feel that either verse is referring to a spiritual death or a future ethereal punishment. I don’t feel that the prophets or the Torah writers referred to spiritual death. Punishment and death were real time and physical. The threat of death for eating from the tree of knowledge is also attributed to spiritual death and not real time physical death. Show me that any of the plain text readings of the prophets or the Torah writers speak of spiritual death or future ethereal punishment without invoking later concepts or adding to the text. (I request this be placed in "The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy" thread. - Thanks) Edited by purpledawn, : No reason given. Edited by purpledawn, : Typo
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:You don't need to assume. I made my position very clear in the OP which contains my argument, not the title. PurpleDawn writes: My contention is that the Old Testament prophets and writers of the Torah do not present a concept of spiritual death. I feel that the spiritual death concept is a later concept influenced by Greek philosophers. I’m not even sure that the current usage of the term spiritual death is the same as the Greek concept of material and spiritual. quote:Again, no need to assume anything. I made it very clear. See quote above. If you're going to participate in this thread, please address the topic and present your arguments. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote: My contention is that the Old Testament prophets and writers of the Torah do not present a concept of spiritual death. I feel that the spiritual death concept is a later concept influenced by Greek philosophers. I’m not even sure that the current usage of the term spiritual death is the same as the Greek concept of material and spiritual.
quote:The opening post is the topic. The title is just a general idea of what the topic is about and an attention getter. The title is not the argument. Show me that any of the plain text readings of the prophets or the Torah writers speak of spiritual death or future ethereal punishment without invoking later concepts or adding to the text.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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An opening post should consist of the topic question or statement being considered and the poster's own position concerning the subject. Some background information on the topic question is also good when the question could be perceived several ways.
My topic statement: My contention is that the Old Testament prophets and writers of the Torah do not present a concept of spiritual death. I feel that the spiritual death concept is a later concept influenced by Greek philosophers. I’m not even sure that the current usage of the term spiritual death is the same as the Greek concept of material and spiritual. My topic statement tells readers that I am focusing this topic on the OT prophets and the writers of the Torah (1st five books). (Admins like the topics narrowly focused.) I have also told readers that I feel the spiritual death idea is a later concept influenced by the Greek philosophers, which gives them a timeline of when the influence might have began. I've also given the idea that the current religious usage of the term "spiritual death" may not be the same meaning as the Greek concept that inspired it. I then gave two examples of where the "spiritual death" idea has been used to help smooth textual inconsistencies between authors. My closing statement explained what I would like to see take place in this discussion. Show me that any of the plain text readings of the prophets or the Torah writers speak of spiritual death or future ethereal punishment without invoking later concepts or adding to the text. This statement clarifies that I want to look at the plain text and not added unsupported stories or later ideas projected backwards. As Modulous pointed out, that means any concept after the writing of the OT prophets or the Torah. I also restate that the focus is on the OT prophets and the Torah writers (1st five books).
Biblical means being in accord with the Bible. Where you pull your information from for your argument is up to you, but if you bring up a later concept and apply it to the past; you also need to provide support as to how the plain text in the past says what you claim it says. Dost thou comprehend? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:That's your schtick? The writers didn't understand what they were writing? That would mean the audience didn't understand what they were hearing. That would make it pointless for God to have something written before people could understand it. Please show evidence that the writers and the people didn't understand what they wrote or heard. The plain text is simply that. It doesn't matter if it was written by men or imparted by God. You need to show that the text says what you claim it says. Inspiration is not impartation. Only the prophets claim visions from God. If you feel they also didn't understand what they were saying, then again you please show evidence that the prophets didn't understand what they wrote and their audiences didn't understand what they heard.
quote:My contention is that Ezekiel meant the one who sins will pay the price for the sin, not the rest of his family. Real time penalty for real time sin. If you feel he meant spiritual death, please show evidence to support your position. quote:That's projecting a later concept onto the document. As I said in Message 10, if you bring up a later concept and apply it to the past; you also need to provide support as to how the plain text in the past says what you claim it says. quote:Please don't channel other threads without linking to the post. We are looking at the plain text. Show evidence that the word die didn't refer to physical death, but referred to spiritual death. Show evidence that the ancient audience understood spiritual death and not physical death. quote:Wow, usually I get lumped with Satan further into the thread, but thanks for getting that out of your system early. Yes, when we understand the plain test interpretations, Satan is exposed for what he is. Dogma hides what Satan really is and doesn't allow people to face the reality. Just like a writer needs to know his audience, a warrior needs to know his enemy. Just as the snake misled Eve, you mislead people about the reality of Satan and death.
quote:It is irrelevant to this discussion. Either the text says what it means or it doesn't. If it doesn't mean what it says, then evidence is needed. quote:Well don't worry yourself about it. I'm not the weaker brother. I'd appreciate it, if you choose to continue in this discussion, if you would cut the bravado and just address the topic of the thread and the arguments concerning it. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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Hey Peg,
quote:Great question and an excellent way to get a discussion rolling. I agree that spiritual death is presented in Christianity as the separation or alienation of the soul from God. I'm not sure whether you meant that or physically separated since you said presence. In ancient Judaism the body and spirit weren't considered separate. One can't be removed from the presence of God without the other. Dualism was a later Greek development.
Body and Soul: Comparative Studies in Biblical Judaism, Greek Philosophy and Medieval Christianity In contrast with the monism of man in Judaism is the dualism in some Greek philosophers. One of the characteristics of the dualism of man is to consider human soul is in essence different from body, the former is entirely spiritual or intellectual substance and the latter is the temporary house or grave. In the A&E story, they are physically removed from the garden body and soul. The soul didn't die or cease to exist. One cannot survive without the other. Remember, in the story of A&E the soul is what gave life to the dirt. Removing the soul, removes the life. Since there is no actual death in the current usage of spiritual death, the text of the A&E story doesn't support the idea of spiritual death. If one actually dies, they both die.
quote:Ezekiel speaks of bringing the Israelites back to the land of Israel, but it doesn't speak of the human soul. quote:The land was left so desolate behind them. It isn't a reference to their spirit. God threw them physically out of the land, but the text isn't talking about a spiritual death. The body and soul are still together. quote:I don't see how the plain text in these verses deals with spiritual death. quote:I don't see that Isaiah is speaking of spiritual food. The text seems to be referring to real food. The breakdown of spirit is their mood or frame of mind due to the hardship. I'm looking at the plain text and I don't see the connections. I see a later concept projected backwards. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:It is extraneous to this discussion. Either the text says what it means or it doesn't. If it doesn't mean what it says, then evidence is needed. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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The book of Daniel in Judaism is classified with the writings not the prophets.
Dan 12:2, NET Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake— some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence. This reads as a physical resurrection, not something in heaven. What in the text makes this ethereal (unrelated to the real world)? I guess I was thinking of a harsher punishment than shame and contempt. Most people bring out the lake of fire.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:From the reading it seems the stay on the planet, body and soul, but live in God's favor or out of God's favor. There really isn't any separation of the soul and body in this passage though. What are you seeing as spiritual death? The term, spiritual death, itself is confusing since the definition doesn't include death; just falling out of favor. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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1. This is a science forum.
2. I don't debate links. 3. Argue the position and not the person. quote:The tale of Adam and Eve is a "just so" type of story. It explained why things were the way they were. Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die The word translated as die, means to kill. As the story progresses we see that God didn't kill them for their transgression and chose to throw them out of the Garden. Whether God lied or changed his mind is irrelevant. Adam and Eve were relocated and penalized; but they still had contact with God (Chapter 4), so they hadn't fallen out of favor with God. God even gave Eve a son to replace Abel. If you view spiritual death as alienation of the soul from God, I don't see it in this story since the writers probably didn't believe in dualism. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:In the story God says that if they eat of the tree they will die. So death is the penalty for eating from the tree. If we were hearing the story for the first time, we might think the tree is poisonous, but once they eat of the tree we know that the tree isn't poisonous. So for Adam and Eve to die the day they eat, they would have to be killed. I think we have become so accustomed to the story that the drama is lost. Muwth
1) to die, kill, have one executed a) (Qal)1) to die 2) to die (as penalty), be put to death 3) to die, perish (of a nation) 4) to die prematurely (by neglect of wise moral conduct) b) (Polel) to kill, put to death, dispatch c) (Hiphil) to kill, put to death d) (Hophal)1) to be killed, be put to death a) to die prematurely
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:That sounds like dualism which is a later concept. Body and Soul: Comparative Studies in Biblical Judaism, Greek Philosophy and Medieval Christianity In contrast with the monism of man in Judaism is the dualism in some Greek philosophers. One of the characteristics of the dualism of man is to consider human soul is in essence different from body, the former is entirely spiritual or intellectual substance and the latter is the temporary house or grave. What changes when one is separated from God? Daniel 12 has also been considered an allegory for the restoration of Israel. If the scroll mentioned in Chapter 12 is the book of Daniel, then the resurrection described has already come and gone. The scroll was to be closed up and sealed until the time of the end. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:If you have a point to make concerning the word soul, make your argument. This is a debate, not 20 questions. quote:Keep on track please. In Message 23 you asked: If the text means what it says and we should take it at face value, why did Adam and others live to extreme ages, was God lying. To which I responded: The word translated as die, means to kill. As the story progresses we see that God didn't kill them for their transgression and chose to throw them out of the Garden. Whether God lied or changed his mind is irrelevant. Actually I said it is irrelevant whether God lied or changed his mind. I made no claim to all instances of any word. Please refrain from adding words to my argument.
quote:No, die means physical death. It can be used creatively, but you haven't shown evidence that this is the case in the A&E story. quote:Show these instances that support your position. I have not assumed that in every instance and with every person God changed his mind or lied. quote:The word translated as soul is nephesh, which refers to a living being and the word translated as die is muwth which refers to physical death. Death is stated as the punishment for sin. According to Ezekiel, only the person who sins will be punished. Zoroastrians and Judaism, to 400 BCE Ezra's laws were presented as Yahweh's laws. This included the traditional eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. The custom of an entire family being considered guilty for the act of any one of its members was discarded in favor of individual responsibility: the father was to continue to have supreme authority within the family, but a father would not be punished for the sins of a son, or a son for the sins of the father. Please show evidence that it should be understood differently.
quote:I pointed out in Message 25 that Adam and Eve didn't lose their relationship with God (Chapter 4). quote:See Message 29. quote:Show evidence that they were separated from God. quote: Body and Soul: Comparative Studies in Biblical Judaism, Greek Philosophy and Medieval Christianity
In contrast with the monism of man in Judaism is the dualism in some Greek philosophers. One of the characteristics of the dualism of man is to consider human soul is in essence different from body, the former is entirely spiritual or intellectual substance and the latter is the temporary house or grave.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:Exactly! quote:Yes, the people were physically exiled/separated from the land of Israel. They were being disciplined. They didn't view the body and soul as separate, so in what way were they separated from God? Other than location, what was different than when they were in the land of Israel? quote:In Zech. 7:11-14, the land is desolate (devoid of inhabitants and visitors), not the people. The people could be desolate (joyless, disconsolate, and sorrowful). By spirit, I meant their mood. My contention is that the Jews did not see the two as separate at the time of these writings and did not convey that in the writings. The dualism is a later concept and I think the creative writing of the prophet lends itself to manipulation to fit the new concept. "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3485 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:The question would be when dualism came into the culture or was it always there? It is difficult sometimes to weed out later influences. The book of Daniel is dated at 167-164 B.C which is after the Greek influence from what I can tell. I did find some other articles dealing with Sheol as your quote described. But even in those articles the separation is only after death and the "shadow" remained there. There was no concept of individual resurrection or separation from God.
The Persian Influence upon the Jewish messianic Belief The conception of a resurrection of the dead and a last judgment had hitherto been strange to the Jews. In pre-exilic days they allowed the body to die and the soul after death to go down as a shadow without feeling into Hades (Sheol), without disturbing themselves further about its fate. The current Christian concept of spiritual death is alienation of the soul from God, whether the person is dead or alive. How is a soul alienated from God while the person is alive? "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz
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