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Author Topic:   On the proportion of Nucleotides in the Genome and what it can tell us about Evolutio
Dr Jack
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From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
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Message 15 of 61 (524355)
09-16-2009 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by slevesque
09-15-2009 5:13 PM


You'll find G-C figures easier to get hold of, probably, because they're the one's traditionally used. G-C %ages were long used as a means of classifying microbial species, so there's a lot out there about them. They're increasingly being replaced by more sophisticated phylogenies based on actual sequences.
As others have noted your assumption that the %ages are not adaptive is simply false. A-T pairs have a double bond, G-C pairs have a triple bond; this means that A-T pairs are easier to seperate, and G-C are harder. So, for example, the origins of replication on genomes (of which there are many on eukaryotic chromosomes, and some archael chromosomes and one on bacterial and most archael chromosomes) have a very high proportion of A-T pairs because these can be easily seperated.
Thermophillic bacteria have higher levels of G-C pairings that their mesophilic relatives (that is, bacteria adapted to higher temperatures have more of the triple bonding G-C pairs which is thought to aid DNA stability). However, among archaea (the true kings of high temperature living), this link between temperature and G-C content doesn't hold. Species such as Pyrolobus fumarii (which can survive at up to 113 oC and grows best at 106) use protein and enzyme chaperones to mphilic relA stability instead.
Finally, there are also specific sequences that perform non-coding functions that can be higher or lower in the two - e.g. the TATA box which indicates gene starts.
So, you see, the picture is much more complicated than a simple random variation between the letters.

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Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
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Message 17 of 61 (524364)
09-16-2009 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dr Adequate
09-16-2009 8:03 AM


Re: Statistics --- ur doin it rong
The median modal number of times for a sequence of heads and tails to cross the zero line is 0, with all higher numbers occur with decreasing probibility.
The reason for this is quite obvious if you think about it: because all future flips occur independently of those flips that have already happened, the chances are that there will not be a trend reversing any initial discrepency from zero.
Edited by Mr Jack, : Added explaination
Edited by Mr Jack, : Meant mode not median

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 20 of 61 (524380)
09-16-2009 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Dr Adequate
09-16-2009 8:42 AM


Re: Statistics --- ur doin it rong
How can zero be the median?
Sorry, I meant mode. My bad.
I think you're still confusing the average difference from zero as n tends to infinity with the path of a particular random walk.
No, I'm not. More paths will not ever cross the zero line than any other particular number of crosses; what is more as the number of crosses increases, the number of paths that have that number of crosses decreases.

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Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 23 of 61 (524395)
09-16-2009 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Dr Adequate
09-16-2009 10:37 AM


Re: Statistics --- ur doin it rong
Nosy, it correct, I was discussing crossings, not meetings.
And, as I said, I meant mode not median. Again, my bad.

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Dr Jack
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Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 26 of 61 (524398)
09-16-2009 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Adequate
09-16-2009 10:44 AM


Re: Statistics --- ur doin it rong
Mean is an extremely poor choice for a situation such as this - especially when considering the infinite limit - because of the large value distortion effect, and the non-normal distribution of the probabilities.
The most probable number of crosses is 0, followed by 1, followed by 2, followed by 3, etc.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 27 of 61 (524399)
09-16-2009 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Dr Adequate
09-16-2009 10:50 AM


Re: Statistics --- ur doin it rong
But you've not crossed it unless the next toss is the same.
HTH meets the zero line, it does not cross it
HTT meets and then crosses the zero line.
Of the possible 3 toss sequences, then, HTT and THH cross the line once; the other six do not cross it at all.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 28 of 61 (524402)
09-16-2009 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dr Adequate
09-16-2009 8:03 AM


Re: Statistics --- ur doin it rong
After looking it up, I realise I have erred. In fact, the result I stated holds for a finite random walk, but it does not hold for an infinite random walk.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 31 of 61 (524406)
09-16-2009 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Dr Adequate
09-16-2009 11:01 AM


Re: Statistics --- ur doin it rong
So, you are not merely wrong, you're also calculating the wrong thing.
You're not humpty-dumpty, words don't mean what you choose them to mean. Touching and crossing are different concepts.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 34 of 61 (524411)
09-16-2009 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Dr Adequate
09-16-2009 11:09 AM


Re: Statistics --- ur doin it rong
You used the wrong word. Funnily enough, since I'm not psychic I figured you meant the word you used.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 37 of 61 (524434)
09-16-2009 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dr Adequate
09-16-2009 12:14 PM


Re: Statistics --- ur doin it rong
You used the word wrongly. Crossing in maths means crossing, just like you'd expect.
Man up and admit your error.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 43 of 61 (524485)
09-17-2009 4:42 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by slevesque
09-16-2009 5:23 PM


Someone talked about the difference in the strength of the A-T double bond and the G-C triple bond. I remembered this fact from my biology class. Now, in order to evaluate the extent of the effects of this fact on the mutational ratios, we would need to observe a trend in the Genomic sequences of various species, favoring the G and C letters.
However, I feel that this effect should be rather small. Because, if I remember correctly, mutations happen during transcription and technically the double strand of DNa has already been seperated by the ADN-polymerase (by memory, probably wrong about the name) and so the actual strength of the bond between G and C doesn't really impact te mutations during transcription.
You've misunderstood my point. The differences in strength of bonding are themselves adaptive. Bacteria adapted to high temperature environments have more G-C bonds because this increases the stability of the DNA. Origins of replication have high levels of A-T bonds because these can be more easily seperated.
This is without counting that, from an evolutionary point of view, the majority of the genome is composed of junk DNA, and so mutations inside this DNA are not affected whatsoever by NS.
This is true only of the Eukarya, in Archaea and Bacteria, the majority of their DNA is not junk.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 54 of 61 (524681)
09-18-2009 4:40 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by Dr Adequate
09-17-2009 10:51 PM


Because of deamination (in which cytosine loses an amine group, and is converted to uracil which then binds to thymine rather than guanine during DNA replication) it sees quite probable that GC -> AT point mutations are more likely than AT -> GC point mutations.

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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.3


Message 56 of 61 (524686)
09-18-2009 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Wounded King
09-18-2009 5:03 AM


Re: Nit-picking
Yes, sorry, binds to uracil, thus replacing the cytosine with thymine *sigh*
That needs to be 5-methyl cytosine for it to really work. There are enzymes which specifically excise and replace uracil bases in the DNA. The repair system may still allow a few through though.
And, yes, most such changes are caught, but not all. Which should provide a bias to the probability to GC->AT vs. AT->GC changes.

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