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Author Topic:   Do fossils disprove evolution?
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 31 of 121 (525446)
09-23-2009 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Wounded King
09-23-2009 11:16 AM


Mutations are non-positive no matter how you classify them.
The math is too astronomical to calculate.
Its so far past the realm of possibility it a joke to even be an issue

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Wounded King, posted 09-23-2009 11:16 AM Wounded King has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jacortina, posted 09-23-2009 12:21 PM ICdesign has replied

  
jacortina
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 64
Joined: 08-07-2009


Message 32 of 121 (525450)
09-23-2009 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ICdesign
09-23-2009 12:09 PM


ICDESIGN writes:
I see post after post of evolutionists calling everyone who disagrees with them stupid when they can't even do this simple math.
ICDESIGN writes:
The math is too astronomical to calculate.
'Simple', yet 'too astronomical'. That's a trick.
I take this to mean that you really don't know much about this subject.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ICdesign, posted 09-23-2009 12:09 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by ICdesign, posted 09-23-2009 1:12 PM jacortina has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 33 of 121 (525461)
09-23-2009 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jacortina
09-23-2009 12:21 PM


Please tell me your not a Brain Surgeon.
If you really need the numbers from a qualified person then I refer you to Dr. Lee Spretner and his book "NOT BY CHANCE".

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 Message 32 by jacortina, posted 09-23-2009 12:21 PM jacortina has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ICdesign, posted 09-23-2009 1:15 PM ICdesign has not replied
 Message 35 by NosyNed, posted 09-23-2009 1:17 PM ICdesign has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 34 of 121 (525463)
09-23-2009 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ICdesign
09-23-2009 1:12 PM


....and yes, its so astronomical of a number that a simple child should be able to understand how impossible the time frame is....

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 Message 33 by ICdesign, posted 09-23-2009 1:12 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 35 of 121 (525465)
09-23-2009 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by ICdesign
09-23-2009 1:12 PM


The math
We do not argue with books. If the math is so "simple" (which is what you said) then bring it here for examination.
Here is what will happen if you do that. You will find that the math (which is "simple" but which you don't understand at all) will be torn to pieces and shown to be nonsense. I suspect that this will be done by even the non mathematicians here but you are up against people who do, in fact, know the math as well.
You tried to fool people and pretend to know the math. You don't do you?
ABE
It is, in fact, not so astronomical. Because you don't understand how to do the math others have used it to lie to you. If you want help so they can't lie to you some more then bring the math here and we will help you with it.
Edited by NosyNed, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ICdesign, posted 09-23-2009 1:12 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ICdesign, posted 09-23-2009 1:47 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 36 of 121 (525473)
09-23-2009 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by NosyNed
09-23-2009 1:17 PM


Re: The math
OK let me walk you through it.
First answer a simple question for me.
1. How many times has it been observed in a science lab that a mutation resulted in an increase of information to a Genome?

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 Message 35 by NosyNed, posted 09-23-2009 1:17 PM NosyNed has not replied

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 Message 37 by Coragyps, posted 09-23-2009 2:06 PM ICdesign has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 37 of 121 (525478)
09-23-2009 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by ICdesign
09-23-2009 1:47 PM


Re: The math
1. How many times has it been observed in a science lab that a mutation resulted in an increase of information to a Genome?
A few thousand times, I would bet. I'll start you with just one:
"Conversion of a Peroxiredoxin into a Disulfide Reductase by a Triplet Repeat Expansion," Science 5 October 2001:
Vol. 294. no. 5540, pp. 158 - 160.
Pathways for the reduction of protein disulfide bonds are found in all organisms and are required for the reductive recycling of certain enzymes including the essential protein ribonucleotide reductase. An Escherichia coli strain that lacks both thioredoxin reductase and glutathione reductase grows extremely poorly. Here, we show that a mutation occurring at high frequencies in the gene ahpC, encoding a peroxiredoxin, restores normal growth to this strain. This mutation is the result of a reversible expansion of a triplet nucleotide repeat sequence, leading to the addition of one amino acid that converts the AhpC protein from a peroxidase to a disulfide reductase. The ready mutational interconversion between the two activities could provide an evolutionary advantage to E. coli.
And it's beneficial, besides.
Welcome to EvC, IC!!

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by ICdesign, posted 09-23-2009 1:47 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by ICdesign, posted 09-23-2009 2:43 PM Coragyps has replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 38 of 121 (525485)
09-23-2009 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Coragyps
09-23-2009 2:06 PM


Re: The math
You would bet a few thousand times? I would bet not! Here you have induced mutations with the help of an intelligent mind and the results are not only minute but they amount to a tiny fraction of all the observed mutations that have a non-positive result.
For cumulative selection to work, a lot of good mutations have to occur by chance. At each step of a cumulative selection, a mutant with a positive selective value has to appear. It also has to be lucky enough to survive and eventually to take over the population. Then another good mutation has to appear for the next step, and so on.
You seem to think the chance of all this happening is large enough to make evolution work. But no one has EVER shown that such a think is likely--or even possible!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Coragyps, posted 09-23-2009 2:06 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Coragyps, posted 09-23-2009 2:50 PM ICdesign has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 39 of 121 (525488)
09-23-2009 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by ICdesign
09-23-2009 2:43 PM


Re: The math
How many days are there in a billion years, IC?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by ICdesign, posted 09-23-2009 2:43 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by ICdesign, posted 09-23-2009 3:03 PM Coragyps has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 40 of 121 (525496)
09-23-2009 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Coragyps
09-23-2009 2:50 PM


Re: The math
How many mutations have to result to get one positive result? How many of those would it take to go one slow step at a time, step by step to end up with what we have on planet Earth today?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Coragyps, posted 09-23-2009 2:50 PM Coragyps has not replied

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 Message 41 by NosyNed, posted 09-23-2009 3:10 PM ICdesign has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 41 of 121 (525497)
09-23-2009 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by ICdesign
09-23-2009 3:03 PM


Mutation Rates
Humans have some 10's of new mutations each and those are the ones that have had the really bad ones weeded out by spontaneous abortion (something like half of all fertilizations).
These are, at worst, not too bad and clearly most are neutral.
That means that there are between 50 and 500 billion mutations in humans every generation. Since we know that some are beneficial it only takes a very, very small proportion to produce lots of beneficial mutations (e.g, posters here who never develop wisdom teeth).
At 1/10 of 1 % we get between 50 and 500 million beneficial mutations a generation or a rate of 2 to 20 million a year. Is that enough for you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ICdesign, posted 09-23-2009 3:03 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by ICdesign, posted 09-23-2009 3:36 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
ICdesign
Member (Idle past 4797 days)
Posts: 360
From: Phoenix Arizona USA
Joined: 03-10-2007


Message 42 of 121 (525504)
09-23-2009 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by NosyNed
09-23-2009 3:10 PM


Re: Mutation Rates
No NosyNed that isn't enough. No one has answered my question and your post is full of misinformation.
"Not too bad" and "neutral" are NOT beneficial mutations. I sure hope your not in charge of anything important.
You guys got nothing but evobabble to offer and I'm out of here.
TO GOD BE THE GLORY

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by NosyNed, posted 09-23-2009 3:10 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Coragyps, posted 09-23-2009 5:11 PM ICdesign has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 43 of 121 (525530)
09-23-2009 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by ICdesign
09-23-2009 3:36 PM


Re: Mutation Rates
You guys got nothing but evobabble to offer and I'm out of here.
That quick, huh? I wanted to talk about human hemoglobin C!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ICdesign, posted 09-23-2009 3:36 PM ICdesign has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2009 8:29 PM Coragyps has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 44 of 121 (525575)
09-23-2009 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Coragyps
09-23-2009 5:11 PM


Re: Mutation Rates
must have reached his 10 post requirement.
CHALLENGE: Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary Intelligent Design Students
Edited by RAZD, : link

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Coragyps, posted 09-23-2009 5:11 PM Coragyps has replied

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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 45 of 121 (525582)
09-23-2009 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by RAZD
09-23-2009 8:29 PM


Re: Mutation Rates
ROFL! I'll bet you're right!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 47 by ICdesign, posted 09-25-2009 11:07 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
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