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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 166 of 1725 (521297)
08-26-2009 8:53 PM


Gun Control and Cognitive Dissonance?
We see cognitive dissonance on a lot of threads, usually with YEC types trying to deal with the evidence of reality.
I see the same process occurring on Two wrongs don't make a right (the (ir)rationality of revenge) - also gun control on the issue of gun control.
This is obviously an emotional issue for many people, but I have yet to see a rational reason to have a gun presented.
I find it interesting to observe the process of cognitive dissonance in action (again).

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by DBlevins, posted 08-26-2009 9:01 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 168 by Coyote, posted 08-26-2009 9:38 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

DBlevins
Member (Idle past 3776 days)
Posts: 652
From: Puyallup, WA.
Joined: 02-04-2003


Message 167 of 1725 (521299)
08-26-2009 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by RAZD
08-26-2009 8:53 PM


Re: Gun Control and Cognitive Dissonance?
I wonder if there is another way I could approach that argument. Am I not clear enough? I almost feel like I'm trying to nail jello to the wall.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by RAZD, posted 08-26-2009 8:53 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 168 of 1725 (521302)
08-26-2009 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by RAZD
08-26-2009 8:53 PM


Re: Gun Control and Cognitive Dissonance?
This is obviously an emotional issue for many people, but I have yet to see a rational reason to have a gun presented.
Here's a deal for you.
You stick to the cities, where you have police, and hope they arrive in time.
I'll stick to the hills where I can have guns for self protection.
You mind your business, and I'll mind mine.
Deal, eh?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by onifre, posted 08-27-2009 12:09 AM Coyote has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 169 of 1725 (521313)
08-27-2009 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Coyote
08-26-2009 9:38 PM


Re: Gun Control and Cognitive Dissonance?
You stick to the cities, where you have police, and hope they arrive in time.
I'll stick to the hills where I can have guns for self protection.
You mind your business, and I'll mind mine.
You, Hannity, OReilly and Limbaugh... Hiding from the liberal left, who wants to take your guns and turn you gay, with the same blue pill.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Coyote, posted 08-26-2009 9:38 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Coyote, posted 08-27-2009 12:28 AM onifre has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 170 of 1725 (521315)
08-27-2009 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by onifre
08-27-2009 12:09 AM


Re: Gun Control and Cognitive Dissonance?
You stick to the cities, where you have police, and hope they arrive in time.
I'll stick to the hills where I can have guns for self protection.
You mind your business, and I'll mind mine.
You, Hannity, OReilly and Limbaugh... Hiding from the liberal left, who wants to take your guns and turn you gay, with the same blue pill.
- Oni
The rules pertaining to guns that apply to the inner cities don't necessarily apply to the outback.
For example, what would with a horse that just broke its leg in the wilderness miles from the nearest road?
Edited by Coyote, : Grammar. Time to call it a night.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by onifre, posted 08-27-2009 12:09 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by onifre, posted 08-27-2009 12:30 AM Coyote has replied

onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 171 of 1725 (521316)
08-27-2009 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Coyote
08-27-2009 12:28 AM


Re: Gun Control and Cognitive Dissonance?
For example, what would with a horse that just broke its leg in the wilderness miles from the nearest road?
Well, what did horses do before humans had guns?
Lets just go back to that.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Coyote, posted 08-27-2009 12:28 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by Coyote, posted 08-27-2009 12:35 AM onifre has not replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 172 of 1725 (521318)
08-27-2009 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by onifre
08-27-2009 12:30 AM


Re: Gun Control and Cognitive Dissonance?
For example, what would with a horse that just broke its leg in the wilderness miles from the nearest road?
Well, what did horses do before humans had guns?
Lets just go back to that.
Sorry, no. Wrong answer. Very wrong answer.
Better you just stay in the city and leave the wilderness to those of us who are capable, eh?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by onifre, posted 08-27-2009 12:30 AM onifre has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 173 of 1725 (521321)
08-27-2009 1:09 AM


Temporary topic closure - Now reopened
Debate the topic there.
Legitimate side comments, but not the debate, here.
Whining? Don't do it anywhere.
Or something like that.
Adminnemooseus
Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Reopen and add "Now reopened" to subtitle.

New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.
Report a problem etc. type topics:
Report discussion problems here: No.2
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Other useful links:
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Admin writes:
It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.
There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.
Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Message 150

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 174 of 1725 (525301)
09-22-2009 8:53 PM


Objective evidence for atheism
At the Pseudoskepticism and logic topic:
RAZD writes:
People keep telling me there is objective evidence for atheism, but so far none has been presented.
I post this message specifically about that statement. I certainly don't recall anyone ever claiming there is objective evidence for atheism. I don't recall anyone ever claiming there is any sort of evidence for atheism.
Has anyone here made such a claim, or know of someone who made such a claim?
Moose

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2009 9:05 PM Minnemooseus has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 175 of 1725 (525305)
09-22-2009 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Minnemooseus
09-22-2009 8:53 PM


Re: Objective evidence for atheism
Message 11
Every single time that you assert that atheism equates to "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" you are denying the mass of objective evidence that many atheists, myself included, would cite in favour of the possibility that gods may just be human inventions.
It is presented as evidence to justify the atheist belief.
Edited by RAZD, : better wording

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-22-2009 8:53 PM Minnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Theodoric, posted 09-22-2009 10:29 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 177 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-22-2009 10:37 PM RAZD has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 176 of 1725 (525319)
09-22-2009 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by RAZD
09-22-2009 9:05 PM


Re: Objective evidence for atheism
I think you are reading into the statement
It claims there is objective evidence "in favour of the possibility that gods may just be human inventions."
It does not say objective evidence saying gods do not exist. I think your conflicts with Straggler or getting in the way of your reasoning. He in no way states that he has objective evidence for the denial of a god, he has objective evidence that there is a strong possibility gods may be a a human invention. Very different.
Edited by Theodoric, : better first line

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 177 of 1725 (525320)
09-22-2009 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by RAZD
09-22-2009 9:05 PM


Re: Objective evidence for atheism
Point taken. But I think the quoted statement does come up short of saying "there is objective evidence that God/gods do not exist", which is what I was looking for.
The place to debate this further is back in the source topic. I will review that topic further and decide if I wish to pursue the point further. Others way like to do likewise.
Moose

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by RAZD, posted 09-22-2009 9:05 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Straggler, posted 09-23-2009 6:32 AM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied
 Message 179 by RAZD, posted 09-23-2009 9:36 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied
 Message 180 by Rahvin, posted 09-23-2009 10:52 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 178 of 1725 (525367)
09-23-2009 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by Minnemooseus
09-22-2009 10:37 PM


Re: Objective evidence for atheism
Point taken. But I think the quoted statement does come up short of saying "there is objective evidence that God/gods do not exist", which is what I was looking for.
I, nor anyone else I have seen here, would make that statement.
The place to debate this further is back in the source topic. I will review that topic further and decide if I wish to pursue the point further. Others way like to do likewise.
There is no objective evidence in favour of any given god. There is objective evidence in favour of the mutually exclusive possibility that any given god concept is a human invention.
Unless RAZD is actually denying that there is objective evidence in favour of the possibility that any given god concept could be a human invention then I don't understand what his point is.
I have asked him this question but he won't answer it. Message 91

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-22-2009 10:37 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 179 of 1725 (525585)
09-23-2009 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Minnemooseus
09-22-2009 10:37 PM


Re: Objective evidence for atheism
Hi moose
But I think the quoted statement does come up short of saying "there is objective evidence that God/gods do not exist", which is what I was looking for.
Not that what I said was (from your quote):
People keep telling me there is objective evidence for atheism, but so far none has been presented.
Message 104
quote:
My "probably a product of human invention" atheism is thus not based on "absence of evidence is evidence of absence". Rather it is based on the objective evidence available.
This meets my standard. Hope that clears it up.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-22-2009 10:37 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 180 of 1725 (525605)
09-23-2009 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by Minnemooseus
09-22-2009 10:37 PM


Re: Objective evidence for atheism
Point taken. But I think the quoted statement does come up short of saying "there is objective evidence that God/gods do not exist", which is what I was looking for.
The place to debate this further is back in the source topic. I will review that topic further and decide if I wish to pursue the point further. Others way like to do likewise.
Moose
Doesn't have to be. All it has to be is a plausible explanation for the observed phenomenon. Parsimony takes care of the rest.
Just like with the origin of life. If abiogenesis is proven to be a plausible mechanism for the rise of life from non-life, parsimony dictates that we should prefer that explanation rather than extra-Universal aliens, god(s), or the Matrix.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by Minnemooseus, posted 09-22-2009 10:37 PM Minnemooseus has seen this message but not replied

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