Christian Laws

I like your description of your practical experience of Christ. I don't know for sure what was the original premis of this 'topic' was, but I think this experience of Christ growing in us is the culmination of the purpose of the law.I wanted to mention Hebrews 8:8-10, a quotation of Jeremiah 31:31-34. These are verses regarding the new covenant. (Pardon my quoting from memory) 'I will impart my laws into their mind and on their hearts I will inscribe them'. What was formerly outside on tablets is now inscribed within. In my experience, I liken it to being given a new appetite.Once I saw a robin strenuously pulling an big night crawler our of my garden. It was obviously motivated by some relish. I was thinking, I'd never like to eat an earthworm, but it occurred to me that the earthworm probably tasted good to the robin. I sure people who saw me read the Bible when I was a young Christian in the Army thought I was strange too. They had no appetite for it, but I had received a new appetite - new laws were insctibed in my heart.The law is called the testimony of God, and, by inscribing His laws into our hearts and on our minds, He is making us into His expression.Jesus did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it (Matt 5:17). (However, He is the end of the law unto righteoussness (Rom 10:4). Righteous is imputed, and based on imputed righteousness, His divine life is also imparted.)I also like Romans 8:4 - 'that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the spirit.' It is fulfilled in us, but not by ourselves alone, as you mentioned, like power steering.

(You said - Was there a time when you realized that there was some difference in the Old Testament Law keeping and the New Testament walk according to the Spirit?Do you recall when that truth first really impressed you? For I think it is natural for us to think we have to grit our teeth and be good people according to our natural strength.)I don't like to combine New Testament and law keeping in the same sentence for the exact reason you mentioned. The temptation to seek to please God by my own effort has been a pitfall for me from my early days of my Christian life. I am reminded of John 1:17 - "The law was given by Moses. Grace and reality came by Jesus Christ." I think the footnote on this verse in the Recovery Verion of the NT brings out the essence of the new covenant - "The law makes demands on us according to what God is. Grace supplies us with what God is to meet what God demands."(P.S. I don't know how to use this site to put in the nice quotes.)

A principle based on a law doesn't automatically make the principle a law. ​ Love you neighbor as yourself is supposedly the spirit of the Mosaic Laws, which are the details or the letter. ​

Is there a difference between a 'commandment' and a law?Edited by Richh, : Trying to HTML the quoteEdited by Richh, : No reason given.Edited by Richh, : No reason given.Edited by Richh, : No reason given.Edited by Richh, : No reason given.

A principle based on a law doesn't automatically make the principle a law. ​ Love you neighbor as yourself is supposedly the spirit of the Mosaic Laws, which are the details or the letter. ​

Is there a difference between a 'commandment' and a law?Edited by Richh, : I re-posted this as I intended to reply to purpledawn in 271.

purpledawn writes: ​ A law: a binding custom or practice of a community : a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority. ​ ... ​ A law may be a commandment, but a commandment isn't automatically a law.

I would say there is a great difference between a commandment and a law as defined in definition 1.I agree that such a law may derive from a commandment. But a law may also derive from no commandment and there may be many commandments that do not issue in any laws. So in this sense I agree with your last statement.Perhaps you are using 'law' in this definition 1 sense. I have not read all of the postings on this forum yet, so I'm not sure.If you are mean definition 2, then, perhaps, there is not such a great difference between a commandment and a law. You could substitute a 'standard of morality' for a 'rule of conduct', substitute 'commanding' for 'prescribing' and apply the 'enforcement by the controlling authority' to the 'coming judgment'.So, given that definition, it is quite easy to list many commandments.Paul used the terms 'law' and 'commandment' interchangeably in Romans 7. His use in this way is consistent with my 'rendition' of definition 2 above. I give an excerpt of Romans 7 at the bottom of this post.LucyTheApe (Message 279) mentioned Matt 22:36-40 where a 'lawyer' questioned Jesus, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?" 37 And He said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 "This is the great and foremost commandment. 39 "The second is like it, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 "On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."I also agree with 'Lucy' that to live by these two 'summary' commandments is nearly impossible.Your observation of inconsistent behavior among Christians proves this difficultness. But we are not 'off the hook'.Jesus said in Matt 5:17, etc., "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass away from the Law, until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and so teaches others, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.I would say the question is not what but how.-----------------------------------------------------Rom. 7:12, etc., So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful. 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin. 15 For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. 16 But if I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that it is good. 17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. 19 For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. 21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wishes to do good. 22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?

I read your message 6 and would like to make the following comments in relation to that.The New Testament speaks of justification by faith. Related to justification are the concepts of forgiveness and redemption.This justification is being made OK to God, to have peace with God. The goal of justification is to bring us back into fellowship with God. This justification is solely by grace through faith and not of works (Eph. 2:8, 9).The God with Whom our fellowship is restored (by justification) is the righteous, holy, loving God. He wants to conform man to His image. So, even though God justifies by faith, that does not imply that God will condone an unrighteous, unholy, unloving living.My question related to this topic was, 'How can someone keep the laws on God's list (or a Christian Law list)?' I imagine this forum on Christian Laws is based on a desire to keep the laws, not just to know them.

quote: from John 10:10

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Deeds of the flesh or fruit of the Spirit
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Gal 5:18-23

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But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

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I would say that this quote by John 10:10 shows something similar to what you are saying about following the spirit of the law.Christians have 'graduated' from following the law to following the Spirit. We don't just have the law, we have the Lawgiver Himself leading. Such a blessed Leader (the Comforter - Paraclete in Greek) will never lead us to do something contrary to the spirit of the law, that is, contrary to the intention of the Lawgiver.It is the desires of the flesh that lead us to do that - and that continually. The desires of the flesh issue in the deeds of the flesh.The first two verses in the section above are Gal. 5:16,17 "But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."The issue, the result, of being led by the Spirit is the fulfilling of the requirement of the law (see below). The requirement of the Law fulfilled in us as we walk by the Spirit.Rom 8:2-4 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. 3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."So, if the issue of being led by the Spirit of God is the fulfillment of the requirement of the Law, it is not exactly right to say that Christians have no laws.I still think the question is how can a fallen man live in a way that is pleasing to a holy, righteous, loving God. I think these verses give a clue as to the way.

Peg wrote (in Post #7):""Hi bluejay, you wrote:"I'm curious. In your opinion, what does this mean for the 10 Commandments?Do they still stand as a code of conduct for Christians to follow? Or, are they outdated now"-as you know, the Mosaic Law was given only to the isrealites and no other nation. according to Paul it had a special purpose..."To make transgressions manifest, until the seed should arrive to whom the promise had been made ... Consequently the Law has become our tutor [or, teacher] leading to Christ." Galatians 3:19-24Once the Christ had appeard, he fulfilled the requirements of the Law and sacrificed himself for the salvation of all mankind. When God accepted Jesus sacrifice Paul could say at Gal 3:10 "Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law," and at Rom 10.4 Christ is the end of the Law"Regarding the 10 commandments, Paul showed that christians were no longer required to observe even them.Rom 7:6-7 "Now we have been discharged from the Law...Really I would not have come to know sin if it had not been for the Law; and, for example, I would not have known covetousness if the Law had not said: 'You must not covet.'"You probably recognize that law as the last of the Ten Commandments. This shows the whole law including the sabbaths, festivals, sacrifices and all that went along with it was no longer relevant.""-I don't think it is right to say that "the whole law...is no longer relevant." The law is called the testimony of God in the Old Testament. As such, the law describes what kind of God He is. The law has two aspects, a ceremonial aspect and a moral aspect.I agree with you that the ceremonial aspects of the law, such as circiumcision, and the priestly and Levital service, were given to the Jews as the people of God. But I also think that all people can learn something about God by the ceremonial law - that God is holy, righteous and yet still wants to be approached by man.The Bible teaches that no one, Jew or Gentile, can ignore the moral aspect of the law and be right with God. When Paul mentioned coveting in Romans 7, he followed by saying, "Wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from the body of this death" (Rom. 7:24). He did not condone coveting, nor was he happy with his coveting. The law had caused him to recognize sin in himself.In the next chapter he describes how the 'righteous requirement of the law' can be fulfilled in those who walk according to the spirit (Rom. 8:4). The point in Romans 7 is regarding the means of fulfilling God's requirement, not the requirement itself.Jesus said (Matt 5:17-19) that He did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. He did fulfill the law. He did live a perfect life and offered Himself to redeem men from the curse of the law.But God also desires many to be "conformed to the images of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers" (Rom 8:29). These many sons should also live like the firstborn Son.Edited by Richh, : No reason given.Edited by Richh, : No reason given.Edited by Richh, : No reason given.

I was looking at your earlier post 6.PurpleDawn writes:
"I keep asking because Christians can't produce their own standards of behavior and provide support that those standards carry a death penalty from God on judgment day."One example of 'standards carrying a death penalty' is in Romans 1:29-32.1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity;
1:30 Whisperers, slanderers, hateful to God, insolent, arrogant, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31 Senseless, faithless, affectionless, merciless;
1:32 Who, though fully knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but also have fellow delight in those who practice them.These verses list a number of evil attitudes and practices which are noted as being 'worthy of death'. Here, the persons refered to are those who have forsaked God. But everyone is susceptible to these forms of evil, including Christians. Most refer to inward evils, yet they are listed as causing those who practice them to be counted worthy of death.Peter enjoins the Christian readers of his first epistle to avoid several of the things listed by Paul.2:1 Therefore putting away all malice and all guile and hypocrisies and envyings and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvationI would say that many of them are 'seeds', that, if allowed to grow, will produce more evil fruit. I have found them in my own heart, much to my alarm. I would say these negative items are on my list of things to avoid and / or eliminate.As far as accountability, I believe the ultimate accountability is to God because of the coming judgment, and to our own conscience as God's representative within. Paul mentions these things - the coming judgment and the place of our conscience - in his defense before Felix in Acts 24.24:15 Having hope toward God, which these themselves also look for, that there is to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
24:16 Because of this I also exercise myself to always have a conscience without offense toward God and men.If we believe in a coming judgment, it should change our way of living and we should pay attention to our conscience in this. Paul mentions a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. I believe he considered himself among the righteous, and yet he was still execrised to live in a careful way because there will be a judgment of the the righteous and the unrighteous.I will say something about the need for justification and salvation in a later post.

Aren't you splitting hairs? Worthy of death is pretty bad. II Pet. 3:9 says that God is not willing that any perish, but that all come to repentance. A continued course on a road labeled "Danger" will lead to destruction. This is clearly indicated in a number of verses.But I will mention some other verses later.

What do you accept as proof of divine origin?

I did provide adequate support - from the New Testament - in quoting Rom. 1:29-32 in post 332. I don't know what more support you are looking for. You didn't answer my question post 337.I fully believe God will judge those negative behaviors noted in that section, such as covetousness, malice, envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, arrogance, boastfulmness, disobediene to parents, etc. How He will judge has been mentioned in some posts by Jaywill.I believe there are no other Christian laws than the Divine laws. These laws are derived from the character or nature of God. He tells His people, "You shall be holy because I am holy." He is saying in effect, "I want you the be like Me." It is the same with His attributes of righteousness, love, etc. He desires to have many sons conformed to the image of His firstborn Son (Rom 8:29). This image is surely an inward likeness, not in mere outward appearance.Jesus said as much in the sermon on the mount when He said, in Matt 5:44-48.
44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you
45 in order that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.
46 For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax-gatherers do the same?
47 And if you greet your brothers only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?
48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.He said, You should be like your Father, God. God wants to produce many sons be imparting Himself into man, sending 'the Spirit of His Son into our hearts crying Abba, Father' to God. Then we, 'by the Spirit' can 'put to death the practices of the body' (Rom. 8:13) and 'the requirement of the Law' can 'be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit' (Rom 8:4). Notice, God the Spirit is there operating in and with the child of God.What has changed in the New Testament age is the means of fulfilling the 'righteous requirement' of the law, but not the requirement itself. The requirement of the law was summarized by Jesus - Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul and wit hall your mind and with all your strength. - and Love your neighbor as yourself.Endued with the Spirit of God, filled with the Holy Spirit, such a living is (often) the spontaneous manifestation of His presence.Edited by Richh, : No reason given.

I gave some details and you didn't like them. This is very detailed.As I said before, "worthy of death" is pretty bad. Being "worthy of death" is like driving with the red light on in your car. You can ignore it for a while, but eventually the warning will be 'carried out' and something bad will happen to your car."Worthy of death" is entirely in line with the warning meaasges of the Bible. Rom 6:23 says, "For the wages of sin is death..." And Ezek. 18:4 says, "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." In the garden of Eden the warning was death and at the end of the Bible, the ultimate punishment is called "the second death."God is longsuffering, not willing that any perish. Ezek 33:11 says, "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Therefore He delays carrying out His final judgment.Law and judgment go together.And He does carry out judgment in our conscience now. I don't know if you think that relates to "Christian laws", but I think it does.I believe what makes the things mentioned legally binding on man is God. I believe that, as man's creator, He has the right to apply whatever requirements suit Him.I'd like to add that, just bacause Christians claim to be justified does not mean that we are not morally accountable.P.S. Sorry I missed the reply button before.Edited by Richh, : No reason given.

I've been away and then tied up for a while, so I didn't get to respond to your post. But I have some free time today.Yes, I'm sure Paul was refering to the laws of God revealed to Moses when he mentioned the law in Rom. 2:12.I think it is possible to trace many of the 'evils' listed by Paul directly to the ten commandments. For example, I believe the temptation to bear false witness is often driven by such motives as malice, envy and malignity. I could continue if you'd like, but I think you could do it too.Maybe it is easier to list laws do not seem to be applicable to Christians today. For example, there is a commandment about not building an altar of hewn stones. I don't know of any, let alone Christians, who seek to apply Exodus 20:24-25 literally today.But I have heard some helpful 'applications' of these verses (see the quote below), so I think they can be applied, in a spiritual sense, today.My wife and I have both had the experience of being uneasy in conscience when given the incorrect change (in our favor), of feeling the necessity to return and give back the excess, and afterward, feeling much happier and relieved in conscience. This is surely an application of 'thou shalt not steal'.I would like say something by 'accountable' too. Accountable is a scary thing. The following is a quotation of Exodus 20:24-25 and footnotes on it from the Recovery Version of the Bible pubilished by Living Stream Ministry. Edited by Richh, : No reason given.Edited by Richh, : No reason given.

To continue discussing Rom 1:29-32, I think unrighteousness, wickedness include things like stealing, bearing false witness, adultery, murder.Disobedience to parents is a violation of the 5th commandment.Hateful to God violates the first 3 commandments and the 'first commandment' mentioned by Jesus, Deut. 6:5 'And you shall love Jehovah your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.''Merciless, affectionless' violates the 'second commandment' mentioned by Jesus, Lev. 19:18b '...but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am Jehovah.'Many things on the list in Romans violates this, being things that contemplate evil against 'your neighbor'. Insolence and arrogance also fall into this category.Murder violates the 6th commandment. Covetousness is a violation of the 10th commandment.I say more on the second half of you post later.