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Adminnemooseus
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Message 181 of 1725 (525628)
09-24-2009 12:56 AM


Time to end this side discussion...
...and take it back to the topic in question. I have just added a moderator message there. That message includes a link back to the related discussion in this topic.
Adminnemooseus

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 182 of 1725 (534977)
11-12-2009 9:17 AM


Kaichos Man in the Information Thread
Over at the Adding information to the genome. thread Dr Adequate has again posted a message (Message 203) of the type that he is both famously known for and often suspended for: that Kaichos Man is just too incredibly stupid to be real.
I couldn't bring myself to suspend Dr Adequate this time because he says precisely what I'm thinking, and what I think everyone else in the thread is thinking. Kaichos Man is very polite and very sincere, but seriously, he can't *really* be that stupid, can he? Therefore he must be a troll and deserves what he gets, right?
Well, I don't think Kaichos Man is a troll. I truly believe he's sincere, but I can think of no explanation for why after a couple hundred posts he seems even further from understanding our explanations. At this point I think few are hoping he'll come to agree with us, we've set much more modest goals of just getting him to the point where he grasps what we're saying. But how he can have four or five people say to him, in effect, "It's blue," and have him come back with, "So you say it's red, good, we're making progress," is just unfathomable.
One comment from a friend I had lunch with yesterday: "It sounds like he can maintain understanding of only a single sentence at a time."
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Added link to Dr Adequate's message.

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Granny Magda, posted 11-12-2009 9:21 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied
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Granny Magda
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Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 183 of 1725 (534981)
11-12-2009 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Percy
11-12-2009 9:17 AM


Re: Kaichos Man in the Information Thread
Hi Percy,
I think there's a very simple explanation; that avatar picture of the chimp with the phone is really him. So on that basis, he's actually doing quite well.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Percy, posted 11-12-2009 9:17 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 184 of 1725 (534984)
11-12-2009 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Percy
11-12-2009 9:17 AM


Re: Kaichos Man in the Information Thread
Hi, Percy.
Percy writes:
One comment from a friend I had lunch with yesterday: "It sounds like he can maintain understanding of only a single sentence at a time."
So, do you think we'd be more successful with short messages taking a strategic, one-step-at-a-time approach?
Maybe that makes it Great Debate material?

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Percy, posted 11-12-2009 9:17 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 185 of 1725 (534990)
11-12-2009 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 184 by Blue Jay
11-12-2009 9:26 AM


Re: Kaichos Man in the Information Thread
I honestly have no idea what might work. Though it makes no sense, to me his behavior is consistent with someone who is working hard to misunderstand what we're saying, sometimes so clumsily as to be beyond belief. If it's true that he's willfully misunderstanding us, then how would we get him to stop? I honestly don't know.
Or what if he really isn't capable of understanding? Ignorance can be remedied, but inability to comprehend?
Or what if he's a troll? If he's a troll then he's putting on the best act of sincerity I've ever seen, and I can't think of a counter to that, either.
Would a one-on-one setting help? Maybe. One thing's for sure, if we keep doing the exact same thing while expecting something different to happen then it's us that's stupid.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2009 10:06 AM Percy has replied
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 186 of 1725 (534994)
11-12-2009 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Percy
11-12-2009 9:45 AM


Re: Kaichos Man in the Information Thread
On the other hand, consider EMA's current behaviour on The Psychology Behind the Belief in Heaven and Hell, where not only is he obviously misreading the Bible (to the point where it looks as if he is deliberately ignoring the text) his posts are littered with disparaging comments directed at anyone who disagrees.
I can name some past members with equally bad problems (infamously Randman, for one).
This is not just an isolated incident with one individual.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Percy, posted 11-12-2009 9:45 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Percy, posted 11-12-2009 10:58 AM PaulK has not replied
 Message 188 by Blue Jay, posted 11-12-2009 11:00 AM PaulK has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 187 of 1725 (535004)
11-12-2009 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by PaulK
11-12-2009 10:06 AM


Re: Kaichos Man in the Information Thread
In other words, "Buck up, in some threads it's much worse!"
Seriously, that's a Faith and Belief thread, I don't usually poke my head in there. If you get to the point where you think moderator help would help then post to the Report discussion problems here: No.2 thread and one of the other moderators will check it out.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2009 10:06 AM PaulK has not replied

Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2698 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 188 of 1725 (535005)
11-12-2009 11:00 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by PaulK
11-12-2009 10:06 AM


Re: Kaichos Man in the Information Thread
Hi, PaulK.
PaulK writes:
On the other hand, consider EMA's current behaviour on The Psychology Behind the Belief in Heaven and Hell, where not only is he obviously misreading the Bible (to the point where it looks as if he is deliberately ignoring the text) his posts are littered with disparaging comments directed at anyone who disagrees.
Tells you mountains about the psychology behind religious belief, doesn't it?
For another example, read my posts on the Book of Mormon thread before Iano arrived to calm things down. Fundamentalist beliefs make people into nutcases and provide a strong counter to the normal, healthy process of cognitive dissonance.
Like Percy said, misunderstanding like that takes lots of practice to perfect.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by PaulK, posted 11-12-2009 10:06 AM PaulK has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 189 of 1725 (535090)
11-12-2009 7:50 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Percy
11-12-2009 9:45 AM


Confirmation Bias and Cognitive Dissonance
Hi Percy,
I honestly have no idea what might work. Though it makes no sense, to me his behavior is consistent with someone who is working hard to misunderstand what we're saying, sometimes so clumsily as to be beyond belief.
I think what you are seeing are the effects of a firmly held belief that evolution is wrong, so therefore it cannot make sense. From this vantage point the purpose of reading texts and explanations is to find problems with them, chinks in the armor.
Because this is the focus, learning what evolution really says is not important. Instead arguments are read only to find their weak points.
Confirmation Bias
In psychology and cognitive science, confirmation bias is a tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and avoids information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs. It is a type of cognitive bias and represents an error of inductive inference, or as a form of selection bias toward confirmation of the hypothesis under study or disconfirmation of an alternative hypothesis.
In many situations, people avoid confirmation bias and test hypotheses in a genuinely informative way.[2] The biases appear in particular for issues that are emotionally significant (including some personal and political topics) and for established beliefs which shape the individual's expectations.[2][4] Biased search, interpretation and/or recall have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme as the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs remain after the evidence for them is taken away)[5], the irrational primacy effect (a stronger weighting for data encountered early in an arbitrary series)[6] and illusory correlation (in which people falsely perceive an association between two events).
Confirmation biases are errors in information processing, as opposed to the behavioral confirmation effect (also called self-fulfilling prophecy), in which people's expectations influence their own behavior.[7] They can lead to disastrous decisions, especially in organizational, military and political contexts.[8][9] Confirmation biases contribute to overconfidence in personal beliefs.[10]
Cognitive dissonance
Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, and also the awareness of one's behavior. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors.[1] Cognitive dissonance theory is one of the most influential and extensively studied theories in social psychology.
Dissonance normally occurs when a person perceives a logical inconsistency among his or her cognitions. This happens when one idea implies the opposite of another. For example, a belief in animal rights could be interpreted as inconsistent with eating meat or wearing fur.
A powerful cause of dissonance is when an idea conflicts with a fundamental element of the self-concept, such as "I am a good person" or "I made the right decision." This can lead to rationalization when a person is presented with evidence of a bad choice. It can also lead to confirmation bias, the denial of disconfirming evidence, and other ego defense mechanisms.
Cognitive Dissonance can also make reading comments from people presenting contradictory information difficult, as the perception is that it must be wrong and attention wanders. Evidence of this situation is when people make mistakes in reference to the contrary posts: they get the information wrong, not because they are stupid or trying to be difficult, but because the information is having trouble getting past the barriers people erect to protect their beliefs.
This behavior is not restricted to FUNDIEs (Fundamentalists under numerous delusions involving evolution), but to anyone with strongly held beliefs and having to deal with contrary information.
Worldview
A comprehensive world view (or worldview) is a term calqued from the German word Weltanschauung (De-Weltanschauung.ogg ['v?lt.?an??a?.??] (helpinfo)) Welt is the German word for "world", and Anschauung is the German word for "view" or "outlook." It is a concept fundamental to German philosophy and epistemology and refers to a wide world perception. Additionally, it refers to the framework of ideas and beliefs through which an individual interprets the world and interacts with it.
A worldview describes a consistent (to a varying degree) and integral sense of existence and provides a framework for generating, sustaining, and applying knowledge.
A worldview can be considered as comprising a number of basic beliefs which are philosophically equivalent to the axioms of the worldview considered as a logical theory. These basic beliefs cannot, by definition, be proven (in the logical sense) within the worldview precisely because they are axioms, and are typically argued from rather than argued for[16]. However their coherence can be explored philosophically and logically, and if two different worldviews have sufficient common beliefs it may be possible to have a constructive dialogue between them[17]
I've likened a world view to a single cell organism, where some ideas get through the cell membrane easily and others are kept out by defense mechanism/s.
There are "trigger" words and phrases that turn on the defense mechanisms (evolution and abortion are two), while rephrasing the concept in neutral words can promote discussion.
YECs generally accept variation, adaptation and descent, seemingly unaware that this is evolution.
Information is another topic where the creationist\idist preconception (doesn't matter where it originates) interferes with discussion about mutations and variations in populations.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Percy, posted 11-12-2009 9:45 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by Coyote, posted 11-12-2009 8:43 PM RAZD has replied
 Message 191 by CosmicChimp, posted 11-12-2009 8:44 PM RAZD has replied

Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 190 of 1725 (535098)
11-12-2009 8:43 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by RAZD
11-12-2009 7:50 PM


Re: Confirmation Bias and Cognitive Dissonance
Good essay, RAZD.
But you left out "willful ignorance."
The simple definition: deliberately ignoring anything that doesn't fit with one's a priori beliefs.
This is similar to willful blindness in law:
quote:
Willful blindness (sometimes called willful ignorance or contrived ignorance) is a term used in law to describe a situation in which an individual seeks to avoid civil or criminal liability for a wrongful act by intentionally putting himself in a position where he will be unaware of facts which would render him liable (from Wiki).
Creationists simply ignore, and thus can deny, that which doesn't fit their a priori beliefs. They tend not to study science for that very reason, and frequently dispute the scientific method because it leads to the "wrong" answers.
They don't have to study science--they just know its wrong. Believing this, they don't need to confront evidence. The evidence or assumptions or something there is wrong because the answer is wrong. That's all one needs to know.
Willful ignorance leads to such gems as "the second law of thermal documents" and "the odds against evolution are 1720" (examples from another website).
If it wasn't so funny it'd be laughable!

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 189 by RAZD, posted 11-12-2009 7:50 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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CosmicChimp
Member
Posts: 311
From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland
Joined: 06-15-2007


Message 191 of 1725 (535099)
11-12-2009 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by RAZD
11-12-2009 7:50 PM


Re: Confirmation Bias and Cognitive Dissonance
I've been reading Schiller lately in the original German. Every sentence is like a saying. True wisdom in every word. This is similar to your (RAZD's) posts actually, each is a POTM.
I sort of 'nod-off' often while reading YEC explanations so I know exactly what you are describing above. But my mind is nevertheless always open for hidden truths!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 192 of 1725 (535107)
11-12-2009 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Coyote
11-12-2009 8:43 PM


Re: Confirmation Bias and Cognitive Dissonance
Hi Coyote,
But you left out "willful ignorance."
Actually I think what is seen as willful ignorance is the result of confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance and the strength of belief, such that it is the inability of concepts to pierce the worldview wall rather than a conscious choice for ignorance.
If it wasn't so funny it'd be laughable!
I've seen similar behavior in non-YECs. To me it is a failure of education to promote open-minded skepticism and logic as necessary tools of education and critical thinking.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Coyote, posted 11-12-2009 8:43 PM Coyote has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 193 of 1725 (535108)
11-12-2009 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by CosmicChimp
11-12-2009 8:44 PM


Re: Confirmation Bias and Cognitive Dissonance
Hi CosmicChimp
I've been reading Schiller lately in the original German. Every sentence is like a saying. True wisdom in every word. This is similar to your (RAZD's) posts actually, each is a POTM.
Thanks. Wish I knew more about it. Makes me wonder if we couldn't have one of our resident experts provide a seminar on the topic of these issues. All I know is what I read and what I observe.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by CosmicChimp, posted 11-12-2009 8:44 PM CosmicChimp has seen this message but not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 194 of 1725 (535116)
11-12-2009 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by Percy
11-12-2009 9:45 AM


OMG the latest post
Hi Percy, just when you thought it couldn't get worse ...
Though it makes no sense, to me his behavior is consistent with someone who is working hard to misunderstand what we're saying, sometimes so clumsily as to be beyond belief. If it's true that he's willfully misunderstanding us, then how would we get him to stop?
One can always use him as a bad example, and a foil for talking past him to the larger audience.
His latest post for example ... Message 208 ...
Wow. (picks up jaw).
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Percy, posted 11-12-2009 9:45 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Wounded King, posted 11-13-2009 4:34 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 195 of 1725 (535139)
11-13-2009 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by RAZD
11-12-2009 10:55 PM


Re: OMG the latest post
I assumed the bit about Lucy was a joke, I certainly hope it was.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by RAZD, posted 11-12-2009 10:55 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

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