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Author Topic:   A Modern Day Miracle Man - Establishes the Supernatural Realm
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 31 of 297 (525730)
09-24-2009 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Cedre
09-24-2009 11:36 AM


An honest look at the evidence
quote:
A Family plane crash
On Sunday 19th April, 2009, Prophet TB Joshua prophesied about a family travelling by plane. This is what he said:
On Friday, remember putting it in prayer. A situation where families will be inside a plane - when I say family, like husband and wife, children and others - and something happens inside the air. Friday of the month - put it in prayer and fast. Please fast and pray. Pray for the family. Where are these family going? Where are they going? I’m seeing crash. So, all over the world, if you are moving with family, your children, yourself, please read Psalm 91:7-end. Jesus will be with you.
This appears to indicate a crash on the following Friday, the 24th April - the day that he asks his congregation to pray and fast, the last Friday of the month. Note that here it is referred to using the future tense.
quote:
Prophet T.B. Joshua again made reference to the prophecy regarding the family on the following Sunday, the 26th April 2009, saying:
Last time I told you about a family that entered the plane. I said the whole family, I saw the whole family -they entered the private jet and the plane crashed. The whole family — what happened? I’m praying, I’m praying that, what would make the family ... if it’s just one person that would go but all the family, they just entered the plane. Where? What happened?
Here it is referred to in the past tense. TB Joshaa is speaking as though that the crash had already happened. He doesn't repeat his warning, he doesn't ask his congregation to pray on future Fridays, there is nothing to indicate that the event had not yet ocurred. The 24th of April was past - the 22nd May still in the future.
The evidence indicates that TB Joshua meant the 24th April - not 22nd May.
Of course it would be far better evidence to produce a prediction BEFORE the fact, and see it come true. Perhaps Cedre you would like to tell us the reason why you refuse to even consider that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Cedre, posted 09-24-2009 11:36 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Cedre, posted 09-24-2009 1:09 PM PaulK has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 32 of 297 (525731)
09-24-2009 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Perdition
09-24-2009 11:00 AM


if you can send me a small donation so I can rent out the local convention center so I can try and get as many people together as I can to chant, perhaps we can save these people!
Do you think we're stupid? How can we send you money if we don't know your address?!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Perdition, posted 09-24-2009 11:00 AM Perdition has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Perdition, posted 09-24-2009 12:13 PM Larni has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 33 of 297 (525732)
09-24-2009 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Cedre
09-24-2009 11:59 AM


Re: Quit messing around and deal with my points
but so far all are failed missions.
So? There are many who want to see Christianity's downfall. There are many others who want to see Islam's downfall. Since at least one of these religions has to be wrong, the fact that someone hasn't "brought them down" cannot be proof that they're right, now can it?
Since I've never heard of this guy or this church, it hasn't received very much media over here, thus I'm sure there aren't too many concerted, scientific investigations of it. I wonder if the "prophet" would let an impartial scientist investigate his claims...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Cedre, posted 09-24-2009 11:59 AM Cedre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Theodoric, posted 09-24-2009 2:13 PM Perdition has not replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 34 of 297 (525733)
09-24-2009 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Larni
09-24-2009 12:07 PM


Well, for obvious reasons, I don't want to be inundated with sick people, I'd not have time to do all my other important, mystical things. Why don't you just tell me your bank account and password, and let me know how much you want to donate, and I'll take care of it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Larni, posted 09-24-2009 12:07 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Larni, posted 09-24-2009 12:23 PM Perdition has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 35 of 297 (525734)
09-24-2009 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Cedre
09-24-2009 11:43 AM


Re: Quit messing around and deal with my points
Are you suggesting a conspiracy of some sort. Are you suggesting that all the random curios folk who visit the SCOAN from all over the world are a part of some conspiracy and are you suggesting that the thousands of viewers are also in on the conspiracy.
Religious people will believe anything though, won't they? Especially if it confirms their superstitious beliefs. If this guy really does miracles how come he's buggering about with his powers when he could go on the road and heal vastly more people than he does?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Cedre, posted 09-24-2009 11:43 AM Cedre has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 36 of 297 (525735)
09-24-2009 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Perdition
09-24-2009 12:13 PM


With evidence of your abilities so readily available by your own testimony how could I refuse?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Perdition, posted 09-24-2009 12:13 PM Perdition has not replied

  
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


(1)
Message 37 of 297 (525737)
09-24-2009 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cedre
09-24-2009 5:09 AM


(insert mockery of Cedre here)
This is laughable.
Healing and health-related events
Instantaneous baby deliveries[17],
Child delivery is common in periods of extreme stress or heightened emotion. If you've ever seen a "faith-healing" pastor at work, you'd know this qualifies.
healing of terrible cancerous sores,
Pictures, or it didn't happen.
the deadly HIV/AIDS virus[18],
Fuck you, asshole. Lots of snakeoil salesmen, particularly in Africa, claim to be able to cure AIDS/HIV - that's where we got the whole "rape a virgin for a cure" nonsense, after all.
Show documented cases where multiple people have been diagniosed by a medical professional with HIV/AIDS, and have subsequently been diagnosed by a medical professional with an undetectable viral load and normal T-cell count after no less than one year with no medication.
Here's the quote from the article Wiki refers to:
quote:
These people tested positive for HIV only a few weeks ago. Their medical certificates, clearly giving a positive reading, were a death sentence for most. Today, after returning to local hospitals for tests, they proudly show off their latest medical reading for HIV - it's negative. Paul Akarigbo tested positive four times at four different laboratories. But then he visited TB Joshua.
Paul Akarigbo: "So after that the doctor called me and said, 'Look, you are free.' I went back for the Lagos test at the university hospital with this note. I was confirmed HIV negative."
Weeks ago?! IDIOT! HIV negative?! IDIOT!
That's not the way HIV diagnosis works.
So here's a quote from Wiki on HIV testing:
quote:
Antibody tests
HIV antibody tests are specifically designed for routine diagnostic testing of adults; these tests are inexpensive and extremely accurate.
[edit] Window period
Antibody tests may give false negative (no antibodies were detected despite HIV being present) results during the window period, an interval of three weeks to six months between the time of HIV infection and the production of measurable antibodies to HIV seroconversion.
So, they were tested positive a few weeks ago, and now they don't?
Sounds like they were tested during the window period and received false negatives on their second testing. COme see me in a year.
You're perpetuating a lie that objectively results in countless deaths as gullible fools stop taking their medication because they believe they've been "cured," or stop taking even minimal precautions because they believe a cure is readily available. Moron.
barrenness,
Because infertility is always 100% certain, amirite?
and raising from the dead [19]
Bullshit. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. This is about as extraordinary as it gets...and your evidence is a wikipedia entry, backed by a fucking news article with absolutely no independent verification - the only person interviewed in teh story, the person who confirmed the man was "dead," is one of the church members!
The facts of the case involve a man who stopped breathing and lost consciousness for an estimated 10 minutes, and remained unconscious for the rest of the day after he started breathing again.
From the lips of the interviewed witness:
quote:
He said his colleagues are surprised when he recounts his story. "People must choose whether they believe in science or in God. I believe it is possible. I saw it with my own eyes and I believe in the Bible," he says.
Only an idiot buys this sort of nonsense.
all through prayer in the name of Jesus Christ are among the reported miraculous activities taking place at SCOAN. In September 2008, it was reported that a man who had been mentally ill for 14 years was restored to sanity and reunited with his family at SCOAN.[20] Spiritual healing at The SCOAN has been mentioned by Time magazine [21][22].
Claims are not evidence, Cedre.
Michael Jackson Prophecy
TB Joshua is also said to have prophesied the death of the iconic pop legend, Michael Jackson, [37] [38][39] [40] [41] personally sending a message of warning through his brother Marlon Jackson, who later visited the church during a trip to Nigeria after his brother's death [42] [43].T. B. Joshua - Wikipedia
"Said to have prophesied?"
Well, gee. I'm "said to have prophesied" the exact value of teh stock market every day for the past decade back when I was in elementary school.
I'm "said to have prophesied" 9/11.
I'm "said to have prophesied" that Cedre would make one of the most laughably stupid series of assertions I have ever seen.
See how easy that is?
Look, I could keep going, but I don't need to. This isn't the presentation of evidence - you're just pulling a Gish Gallop, trying to bury us in numerous unsupported assertions so that you can claim victory when we don't refute them all.
The fact is, you've presented a bunch of claims, with no evidence. You seem incapable of distinguishing the two.
You're just enabling another faith-healing fraud as he gives unfounded hope to people who are actually suffering. Numerous studies have been done on faith healing, and they've always shown that, while people may receive a temporary benefit (short-term pain relief, etc), and many people believe they;ve been cured, the symptoms (when they actually existed in teh first place) return later. In some cases, people have died believing that their cancer was cured because they stopped going to the doctor.
As far as I'm concerned, perpetuating this sort of fraud without real evidence, independently verified (and no, a news reporter is not independent verification - they just repeat the story they're told) makes you an accessory to murder. And a gullible fool.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cedre, posted 09-24-2009 5:09 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 09-24-2009 12:45 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 43 by Cedre, posted 09-24-2009 1:52 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 54 by slevesque, posted 09-24-2009 2:41 PM Rahvin has replied
 Message 57 by Theodoric, posted 09-24-2009 3:08 PM Rahvin has not replied
 Message 84 by Admin, posted 09-25-2009 7:46 AM Rahvin has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 297 (525741)
09-24-2009 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rahvin
09-24-2009 12:32 PM


Re: (insert mockery of Cedre here)
So I found this video on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7cGK9OodVY
Its all about the subject of this thread.
I skipped through most of it, its 25 min., but I did happen to see these words right before the credits at the end, I think its an update for some of the people who were healed in the video:
quote:
John Rindel went for an AIDS test on April 12, He is still HIV positive.
Nine year-old Muller Starke went for medical tests on April 18, His heart condition remains unchanged.
Wium Basson died over the weekend.
A dude actually died because he thought he was cured. That really sucks. Bad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rahvin, posted 09-24-2009 12:32 PM Rahvin has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by Theodoric, posted 09-24-2009 2:23 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 39 of 297 (525745)
09-24-2009 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by PaulK
09-24-2009 12:02 PM


Re: An honest look at the evidence
This appears to indicate a crash on the following Friday, the 24th April - the day that he asks his congregation to pray and fast, the last Friday of the month. Note that here it is referred to using the future tense.
You have added your own words to the prophecy, TB Joshua doesn't include the words "the last" As you have above and therefore your whole argument crumbles.
Last time I told you about a family that entered the plane. I said the whole family, I saw the whole family -they entered the private jet and the plane crashed. The whole family — what happened? I’m praying, I’m praying that, what would make the family ... if it’s just one person that would go but all the family, they just entered the plane. Where? What happened?
As to the past tense used here, TB Joshua is telling his congregation what he saw in his vision, of course in his vision he did see the family enter the plane like a movie if you would, so the use of past tense doesn't mean that he was suggesting that it had already happened.
Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by PaulK, posted 09-24-2009 12:02 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Perdition, posted 09-24-2009 1:17 PM Cedre has replied
 Message 48 by PaulK, posted 09-24-2009 2:21 PM Cedre has replied

  
Perdition
Member (Idle past 3238 days)
Posts: 1593
From: Wisconsin
Joined: 05-15-2003


Message 40 of 297 (525747)
09-24-2009 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Cedre
09-24-2009 1:09 PM


Re: An honest look at the evidence
But you have to admit that, at best, he was vague on the when, where and who. He could be fairly certain that on some Friday, a plane with a family on it will crash. Once it happens, he can claim it as a verified prophecy.
If he knew precisely who it would be, why would he not try to warn the family to save them from crashing? It seems incredibly heartless to see something like that and do nothing to try and stop it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Cedre, posted 09-24-2009 1:09 PM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Cedre, posted 09-24-2009 1:22 PM Perdition has not replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 41 of 297 (525748)
09-24-2009 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Perdition
09-24-2009 1:17 PM


Re: An honest look at the evidence
But you have to admit that, at best, he was vague on the when, where and who. He could be fairly certain that on some Friday, a plane with a family on it will crash. Once it happens, he can claim it as a verified prophecy.
I will not admit that based on your current argument. Because Tb Joshua does mention Friday as the day of the accident, he mentions a private jet and he mentions a family and the time between the date of the prophecy and its fulfillment is relatively small.
But you have to admit that, at best, he was vague on the when, where and who. He could be fairly certain that on some Friday, a plane with a family on it will crash. Once it happens, he can claim it as a verified prophecy.
There are possible reason; God probably would not have him reveal their identities, or the vision he received was not so clear as to reveal their exact identities.
Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Larni, posted 09-24-2009 1:46 PM Cedre has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 42 of 297 (525753)
09-24-2009 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Cedre
09-24-2009 1:22 PM


Re: An honest look at the evidence
God probably would not have him reveal their identities,
Why would the Abrahamic god not want to reveal their identities and yet allow the good pastor to see what he saw?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Cedre, posted 09-24-2009 1:22 PM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Cedre, posted 09-24-2009 1:56 PM Larni has replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 43 of 297 (525754)
09-24-2009 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Rahvin
09-24-2009 12:32 PM


Re: (insert mockery of Cedre here)
Child delivery is common in periods of extreme stress or heightened emotion. If you've ever seen a "faith-healing" pastor at work, you'd know this qualifies.
The women who give birth at the SCOAN, come into the service cool and calm they sit through the entire first half of the service which is comprised of sermonizing without any signs of contraction, and during the second half of the service which is healing time, they still seem calm-and-collected, only when TB Joshua extends his hands towards their wombs one-at-a-time do some start acting up, and then within seconds the child is born, literal seconds. There are cases outside of the walls of the SCOAN of babies being born in 60 seconds, and that's it, even so they are very rare and thinly dispersed.
The remarkable thing is these women hardly have anytime to feel any pain as the babies shoot out suddenly and unexpectedly, extreme stress or heightened emotion is not usually evident, but I still do not think that extreme stress necessarily facilitates a faster birth, women giving birth in hospitals usually have extreme stress and emotions are high yet it takes hours for a baby to be born. I do not think furthermore that they go into the service with a lot of expectation everyone has a pinch of skepticism, some of them only ask prayer for a successful birth in a hospital setting only to give birth right there in front of many total strangers from kids to adults a few minutes later .
healing of terrible cancerous sores,
Pictures, or it didn't happen.
I keep on saying you can't use a claim as proof for what you are trying to prove. It takes more then rhetoric to build a solid argument. these healing are captured on film and are performed in front of doubters, skeptics, critics even medical professionals, the total number of those in attendance in a regular service, visitors plus regulars is in the thousands.
Fuck you, asshole. Lots of snakeoil salesmen, particularly in Africa, claim to be able to cure AIDS/HIV - that's where we got the whole "rape a virgin for a cure" nonsense, after all.
I don't appreciate your use of boorish language when you talk to me. If you can't communicate decently with people then you should communicate at all.
Show documented cases where multiple people have been diagniosed by a medical professional with HIV/AIDS, and have subsequently been diagnosed by a medical professional with an undetectable viral load and normal T-cell count after no less than one year with no medication.
There are documented cases remember these miracles are done before man many people, and apart from this many of the prayed for people have doctor's reports to show for their ailments. Visit the SCOAN website and order material from their webstore, If you don't want to do that track down these people and confirm with them. You should be able to find at least one.
[qs]
Weeks ago?! IDIOT! HIV negative?! IDIOT!
That's not the way HIV diagnosis works.
So here's a quote from Wiki on HIV testing:
quote:
Antibody tests
HIV antibody tests are specifically designed for routine diagnostic testing of adults; these tests are inexpensive and extremely accurate.
[edit] Window period
Antibody tests may give false negative (no antibodies were detected despite HIV being present) results during the window period, an interval of three weeks to six months between the time of HIV infection and the production of measurable antibodies to HIV seroconversion.
So, they were tested positive a few weeks ago, and now they don't?
Sounds like they were tested during the window period and received false negatives on their second testing. COme see me in a year.
This doesn't include everyone, but only the group in question. But the bottom line is even the passage you give merely states "Antibody tests may give false negative results" its not the rule its just an exception, meaning that it doesn't give false readings at all times, and the group of people in question tested positive for HIV only a few weeks ago. Their medical certificates, clearly giving a positive reading, were a death sentence for most. Today, after returning to local hospitals for tests, they proudly show off their latest medical reading for HIV - it's negative. They were a group not one individual, its not likely that all of them will give false results.
Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.
Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Rahvin, posted 09-24-2009 12:32 PM Rahvin has not replied

  
Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 44 of 297 (525756)
09-24-2009 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Larni
09-24-2009 1:46 PM


Re: An honest look at the evidence
Why would the Abrahamic god not want to reveal their identities and yet allow the good pastor to see what he saw?
At this point I would have told you to ask God personally, but I won't I will give probable reasons; one reason may be to confirm TB Joshua's ministry and put to rest all the unfounded criticisms he suffers daily from doubting Thomases, another reason may be to show that God is in control, and that He knows the end from the star. Or the reason may simply be unknown to man. Whatever makes you happy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Larni, posted 09-24-2009 1:46 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Larni, posted 09-24-2009 2:39 PM Cedre has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 45 of 297 (525757)
09-24-2009 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Cedre
09-24-2009 11:06 AM


Re: Quit messing around and deal with my points
So amazing are this mans miracles that even Time magazine had to cover him in an article.
Helps to confirm your sources. As far as I can tell he was never covered in an article by Time magazine. There is a picture of him on Time.com, but the accompanying article does not mention him at all.
Page not found | TIME
It is not clear whether the article or the picture were online only or made the actual magazine, but a single picture of him does not mean they "covered" him.
If you can find this Time article that covers him please do let us know how to find it.
I know I said I wasn't going to debate you anymore, but I do feel the need to point out your distortions of fact.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Cedre, posted 09-24-2009 11:06 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Cedre, posted 09-24-2009 2:12 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
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