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Author Topic:   EVOLUTION'S FRAUD HAS CONTRIBUTED TO ITS PUBLIC ACCEPTANCE:
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1024 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 226 of 323 (525677)
09-24-2009 8:25 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Archangel
09-24-2009 6:59 AM


Appreciation of the spiritual
This is only tangentially related to the topic, but I felt compelled to ask:
quote:
Not to mention our recognition of and sensitivity to the spiritual realm which no other animals which have we allegedly evolved from, practice or even recognize in any way, shape or form.
How the hell do you know? What does an elephant think about when it stares up at stars in the night sky?
Edited by caffeine, : Half my post vanished mysteriously
Edited by caffeine, : No reason given.

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 Message 219 by Archangel, posted 09-24-2009 6:59 AM Archangel has not replied

  
dokukaeru
Member (Idle past 4614 days)
Posts: 129
From: ohio
Joined: 06-27-2008


Message 227 of 323 (525687)
09-24-2009 8:58 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by Percy
09-24-2009 8:03 AM


I think this is an important point to make:
Even though NG is not a peer reviewed article, the Archaerapter composite was discovered as a fake through somewhat of a peer review process. Immediately after the NG press conference, Xu Xing began looking for another fossil to compare. When he found one and realized that the NG one was a composite, he notified NG. They were embarrased and angry, but they published a formal retraction and apology.
This is NEVER the case for creationists and their websites/articles. They continuely use false evidence even when they are notified of such.
That demonstrates fraud beyond any reasonable doubt IMHO.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by Percy, posted 09-24-2009 8:03 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
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Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 228 of 323 (525693)
09-24-2009 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by dokukaeru
09-24-2009 8:58 AM


They were embarrased and angry, but they published a formal retraction and apology.
A six-page retraction, IIRC. Not "hidden" anywhere, Angel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by dokukaeru, posted 09-24-2009 8:58 AM dokukaeru has not replied

  
greyseal
Member (Idle past 3861 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009


Message 229 of 323 (525779)
09-24-2009 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 219 by Archangel
09-24-2009 6:59 AM


still not a fraud!
Didn't you ask me to document where evolution used the Orce evidence to further the validity of the theory in order to show that it rejected it as nothing more than a fraud?
wait, what? You could try to write something that makes sense rather than simply further my opinion of you.
I (and everyone ELSE) has asked you to document your claim of FRAUD.
Because you appear to be slow and having trouble understanding the big words, here is the dictionary meaning of fraud:
quote:
deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
Now, I'll take it slow because you seem to be having trouble, but a mistake is none of the following: deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence.
You COULD argue the last one, but NOT when you add "perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage".
So, if Ocre man is a mistake and not anything of the above (and I hasten to add it was detected and retracted by scientists - one year later notwithstanding) it is not fraud.
Got that?
I'm not trying to be rude, but the TO page you linked to makes it quite clear that there is a lot of disagreement about the fossil
Which the original quote I posted makes very clear but which you also went after me about as if I was saying more than that.
Yes, you WERE saying more than that. Which part of "it was not a fraud" are you failing to understand?
Dear sir, I do not wish to cast aspersions on the magnitude of your IQ, but I am having trouble explaining this any simpler.
The fact that an unfriendly, inaccurate, biased website makes the same point out to be bigger and grander than it is (and it STILL falls short of "fraud") is hardly at issue!
attempts to say that is my ancestry when my ancestry is one of being descended from the King of Kings, then I find that lie to be offensive and degrading
Well sure, you can be offended all you like when I call you an ape. I call myself an ape, we are all apes. Again, I cannot put it any simpler. If you do not wish to put homo sapiens sapiens in the same taxonomic family I can't help you, blame the creationist who came up with the methods!
Your argument that we are not animals falls flat on it's face because unless you are a fungus (IQ not withstanding) or a plant of some kind, you are an animal! you eat, breath, excrete, move, grow and reproduce!
You can scream until you are blue in the face but it will not change these facts.
We may be the worlds "highest" animal but animal we are!
Even if god almighty came down and told me personally he created the world 6000 years ago, it wouldn't change the facts we know about evolution and taxonomy, you can blame the man upstairs for playing fast and loose with the base pairs if you wish.
Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.
Edited by greyseal, : minor grammar and spelling

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Archangel, posted 09-24-2009 6:59 AM Archangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by Archangel, posted 09-24-2009 4:23 PM greyseal has not replied

  
Archangel
Member (Idle past 1357 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 230 of 323 (525787)
09-24-2009 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 229 by greyseal
09-24-2009 3:21 PM


Re: still not a fraud!
greyseal writes:
wait, what? You could try to write something that makes sense rather than simply further my opinion of you.
I (and everyone ELSE) has asked you to document your claim of FRAUD.
Because you appear to be slow and having trouble understanding the big words, here is the dictionary meaning of fraud:
deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
Now, I'll take it slow because you seem to be having trouble, but a mistake is none of the following: deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence.
You COULD argue the last one, but NOT when you add "perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage".
So, if Ocre man is a mistake and not anything of the above (and I hasten to add it was detected and retracted by scientists - one year later notwithstanding) it is not fraud.
Got that?
Since Percy is allowing you to speak to me in your sanctimonious and condescending tone, apparently that is now allowed. So let me explain my issue with the opposition here. Just because You all continue to reject everything I say with insulting retorts and ignore all of the arguments I have forwarded as if I haven't supported anything I have claimed, it doesn't mean that you are right or that I haven't supported my claims. It just means that I am outnumbered by around 10 to 1 and you all use the same cowardly tactic of not debating at all, but just insulting me when you cannot legitimately refute the my arguments which you have all ignored for the most part.
I see no reason to jump through hoops for people who are obviously too ignorant to comprehend my arguments and evidence the first time I offer it which is why I refuse to repeat myself for you or say the same things using different words. Feel free to read my posts on this thread, but I'll be darned if I'm going to respond to your demands when you have ignored every argument I have made here as if it was non existent in its content.
The simple fact is that your religion of evolution is a false man made cult. And you can't even explain HOW the life you assert began spontaneously actually came into being, nor WHEN or WHY it occurred. How, When and Why, 3 pretty important components if you are actually building a science for life upon it. So come back to me when you have the foundation upon which you build evolution established and we'll talk. Until then, all you represent is a man made myth which was built upon the bones of long dead animals, and nothing more.
Only in the minds of ignorant idolatrous evolutionists could they take a shard of bone and from it create the Orce Man, or take a pigs tooth and build Nebraska Man, or soak a modern era skull in tea, add a jaw to it and call it Piltdown Man, a fraud which lasted 5 decades and furthered the lie which evolution represents to this day. And only after these and other examples could people like you attack me as if I'm the one committing the fraud. Like I have always said, without the delusions of ignorant men, the fraud of evolution could never have survived Darwin's initial folly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by greyseal, posted 09-24-2009 3:21 PM greyseal has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-24-2009 4:43 PM Archangel has not replied
 Message 232 by Admin, posted 09-24-2009 4:50 PM Archangel has not replied
 Message 234 by Coyote, posted 09-24-2009 5:44 PM Archangel has not replied
 Message 235 by Granny Magda, posted 09-24-2009 5:54 PM Archangel has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 231 of 323 (525795)
09-24-2009 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Archangel
09-24-2009 4:23 PM


Re: still not a fraud!
You have a great future ahead of you preaching to ignorant fundies. Even reading your rantings on the internet, one can almost see the flecks of spittle forming at the corners of your mouth.
But we are not ignorant fundies; we require facts rather than hysteria and bile; and if you're not going to try to justify the nonsense in your OP, then you're wasting your time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Archangel, posted 09-24-2009 4:23 PM Archangel has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 232 of 323 (525796)
09-24-2009 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Archangel
09-24-2009 4:23 PM


Re: still not a fraud!
Archangel writes:
Since Percy is allowing you to speak to me in your sanctimonious and condescending tone...
I would like both sides to ratchet it down and focus on the topic.
The goal of EvC Forum is to provide a venue for discussions that actually make progress toward finding common ground and mutual understanding. One part of your position (but not the only one) that no one understands is why you think things like Orce man and Coelacanth are frauds. I think if you just explain your reasons clearly that it would go a long way toward moving discussion productively forward.
Please, no replies to this message.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Archangel, posted 09-24-2009 4:23 PM Archangel has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 233 of 323 (525799)
09-24-2009 4:53 PM


To Everyone
Continued ad hominem will begin resulting in suspensions soon. I've just started moderating this thread, so let's reset our passions to zero and focus on the topic.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2105 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 234 of 323 (525804)
09-24-2009 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Archangel
09-24-2009 4:23 PM


A summary of sorts
Probably my last post on this subject:
...you all use the same cowardly tactic of not debating at all, but just insulting me when you cannot legitimately refute the my arguments which you have all ignored for the most part.
Your points have been refuted, but those refutations have been ignored. After several times posting the same refutations, some folks may have lost patience.
...I'll be darned if I'm going to respond to your demands when you have ignored every argument I have made here as if it was non existent in its content.
Your posts had content, but that content was refuted multiple times.
The simple fact is that your religion of evolution is a false man made cult.
The theory of evolution is a scientific theory based on empirical evidence. Some folks choose to disbelieve it for religious reasons, but that makes it neither a religion, false, nor a cult.
And you can't even explain HOW the life you assert began spontaneously actually came into being, nor WHEN or WHY it occurred. How, When and Why, 3 pretty important components if you are actually building a science for life upon it.
This has been explained several times: the study of origins is separate to all but creationists. It is in its infancy, but I don't doubt that someday some pretty decent theory will develop to explain the how, when, and the why. Science has a pretty good record of explaining things.
So come back to me when you have the foundation upon which you build evolution established and we'll talk. Until then, all you represent is a man made myth which was built upon the bones of long dead animals, and nothing more.
And genetics. And geology. And a bunch of other related fields. And that is all woven into a pretty good theory, which has withstood tests and challenges for 150 years now. Some folks don't accept the theory because of religious beliefs, but that doesn't lessen the empirical data nor the theory.
Only in the minds of ignorant idolatrous evolutionists could they take a shard of bone and from it create the Orce Man, or take a pigs tooth and build Nebraska Man, or soak a modern era skull in tea, add a jaw to it and call it Piltdown Man, a fraud which lasted 5 decades and furthered the lie which evolution represents to this day. And only after these and other examples could people like you attack me as if I'm the one committing the fraud. Like I have always said, without the delusions of ignorant men, the fraud of evolution could never have survived Darwin's initial folly.
Actually the theory of evolution is doing better and better with each year that passes. More and more predictions are made and successfully tested, and more and more data comes in which supports the theory. As has been pointed out, we have rejected the several mistakes and the hoax that was Piltdown and are the stronger for it. If Piltdown had been real it would have been a major problem because it didn't fit with the rest of the data! The theory of evolution--or rather the particular details of hominid evolution--is stronger without Piltdown!
Anyway, that's all for now. Stop by again sometime.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Archangel, posted 09-24-2009 4:23 PM Archangel has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 235 of 323 (525807)
09-24-2009 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Archangel
09-24-2009 4:23 PM


Still Not Playing Ball!
Hi Angel,
You all continue to reject everything I say with insulting retorts and ignore all of the arguments I have forwarded as if I haven't supported anything I have claimed, it doesn't mean that you are right or that I haven't supported my claims.
As far as I can tell, you have not substantiated your claims. All you have done with regards to Orce Man is claim that a) it is a fraud and b) it has contributed to the widespread acceptance of evolution. The fact that you have done so repeatedly does not mean that you have backed those claims up.
What I have been asking is for you to substantiate those claims.
So you think that Orce Man was a fraud. okay. Perhaps it is and perhaps it ain't. What you are being asked to do is substantiate that claim.
Who committed fraud? How? In exactly what way were they dishonest? How can you demonstrate this to be the case? How can you verify that they were deliberately dishonest as opposed to simply being mistaken?
You also think that Orce man has contributed to the widespread acceptance of evolution. Okay. Maybe it has and maybe it hasn't. What I have been asking you to do is to substantiate that claim.
How has it furthered acceptance of evolution? How do you know this is true? Where is the evidence that this has been cited as prima facie evidence of evolution? Can you point to a single person who cites Orce Man as their reason for believing in the Theory of Evolution?
I'm not asking you these questions just to annoy or trap you. I'm trying to engage you in... y'know... debate. This being a debate site an' all.
Now either you are willing to substantiate your claims, or you are not. If so, please do so. If not, then merely repeating the same claims, over and over, without ever substantiating them, isn't going to cut it here. No-one is going just take your word for it. You have to back up what you say with evidence.
The time to either put up or shut up has come and gone Angel.
What's it going to be then eh?
Mutate and Survive

"A curious aspect of the theory of evolution is that everybody thinks he understands it." - Jacques Monod

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Archangel, posted 09-24-2009 4:23 PM Archangel has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by Archangel, posted 09-24-2009 8:18 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Archangel
Member (Idle past 1357 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 236 of 323 (525817)
09-24-2009 7:56 PM


DA writes:
You have a great future ahead of you preaching to ignorant fundies. Even reading your rantings on the internet, one can almost see the flecks of spittle forming at the corners of your mouth.
But we are not ignorant fundies;
The only rational response I can offer to this personal attack is, SURE YOU ARE!!! You just lack any and all spiritual insight. But you are most definitely an ignorant fundie, and your religion is the man made cult of evolution. At least my fundamentalism is founded in Gods eternal truths. So feel free to look down on me as I welcome the condemnation of your ilk. It only strengthens my resolve to never compromise the truth I know for the lies you propagate.

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-24-2009 8:19 PM Archangel has not replied

  
Archangel
Member (Idle past 1357 days)
Posts: 134
Joined: 09-09-2009


Message 237 of 323 (525819)
09-24-2009 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by Granny Magda
09-24-2009 5:54 PM


Re: Still Not Playing Ball!
Granny writes:
So you think that Orce Man was a fraud. okay. Perhaps it is and perhaps it ain't. What you are being asked to do is substantiate that claim.
Who committed fraud? How? In exactly what way were they dishonest? How can you demonstrate this to be the case? How can you verify that they were deliberately dishonest as opposed to simply being mistaken?
You see Granny, this question which has been repeated ad infinitum by you and your cohorts is a perfect example of your blatant dishonesty and disingenuous debating style. It also reveals your sides cockiness and sanctimonious belief that you can con us by insisting that I answer a question you know cannot be answered from any source on the web since you have done the required searches yourself and know it has been erased from the on line journals, so the info no longer exists on the net. Which just confirms the power of this cult. Of course I posted the excuses T.O. offers regarding Orce Man, and am still told that I must defend that evidence of evolutions refusal to actually admit the misrepresentation you all have admitted to right here on this thread since you're demanding evidence that evo supported it as valid. Evolutionists can't even remain consistent within the same debate regarding their dogma as they speak out of both sides of their mouths depending on which post you are on at the moment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Granny Magda, posted 09-24-2009 5:54 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-24-2009 8:20 PM Archangel has not replied
 Message 240 by Coragyps, posted 09-24-2009 8:33 PM Archangel has not replied
 Message 241 by mark24, posted 09-24-2009 8:42 PM Archangel has not replied
 Message 242 by Granny Magda, posted 09-24-2009 8:49 PM Archangel has not replied
 Message 246 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-24-2009 10:16 PM Archangel has not replied
 Message 256 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-25-2009 8:49 AM Archangel has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 238 of 323 (525820)
09-24-2009 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by Archangel
09-24-2009 7:56 PM


It's funny how when religious people want to talk smack about some concept, they always pretend that it's a religion, as though that's the worst thing you could say about an idea.
Now me, when I want to disparage creationism, do I go about pretending that it's a science? I do not.
---
Now, would you like to try to justify the nonsense in your OP, or would you rather do your brimstone preacher act again? It's funny, but, as I've pointed out, it serves little purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by Archangel, posted 09-24-2009 7:56 PM Archangel has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 239 of 323 (525821)
09-24-2009 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Archangel
09-24-2009 8:18 PM


Re: Still Not Playing Ball!
So, you have no evidence of fraud in the case of the Orce fragment.
Thought not.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Archangel, posted 09-24-2009 8:18 PM Archangel has not replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 240 of 323 (525823)
09-24-2009 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by Archangel
09-24-2009 8:18 PM


Re: Still Not Playing Ball!
since you have done the required searches yourself and know it has been erased from the on line journals, so the info no longer exists on the net. Which just confirms the power of this cult.
Wow. "Erased from the web" by the Illuminati-like Overlords of Evolutionism. And they, in typical evil fashion, have erased all traces of their erasures, correct?
"Wow" just about sums it up for me, Archangel.

"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by Archangel, posted 09-24-2009 8:18 PM Archangel has not replied

  
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