let me guess, another faith healer prophet giving out prophecies which (even if manage to be "accurate"*) aren't anywhere near being useful?
there's a million of them, their claims all so far devolve into noise when looked at under the bright light of reason.
Name these millions of prophets along with the prophecies and also demonstrate that their prophecies were made before the events they prophesied would happen.
** meaning he's got the whole world to base his predictions in. I could give you a million of them and be right.
Go ahead.
* "accurate" means that "something approximately of the same type of general thing happened in some generically plausible analogue of the place suggested to a somewhat similar group of people who may or may not be anywhere near the general area suggested by the words this 'prophet' used"**
It's still pretty accurate and that in itself is amazing, plus don't forget the very short time that elapses between the time of the prophecy and its fulfillment. No amount of rattling will water down the accuracy of his prophecy.
Telling someone on a message board that you're not familiar with something is like telling someone at a buffet that you don't know what one of the items taste like.
Now that you've read up on double blind tests, is there something in particular that you're having trouble on with it being applied to the miraculous claims mentioned in this thread?
I'm not assuming anything about you, but such an open ended question is just too broad for me to take a gander at. How would I know where to begin?
Name these millions of prophets along with the prophecies and also demonstrate that their prophecies were made before the events they prophesied would happen.
are you telling me that there AREN'T a million prophets out there, all claiming to know the truth?
Fine, yeah, right. I'll just ignore the fact that there have been many exclamations by the jehovah's witnesses about the end of the world (so far all wrong), many exclamations by various doomsday cults that the mother ship would come get them (periodically either poisoning themselves or being told that they were so righteous that the earth was spared) and, well, every prophet ever, really.
I'll ignore your blasphemous cry to go ahead - I gave you a prophecy! I dare you to prove me it didn't happen somewhere in the world that VERY second.
I double-dog-dare you.
and if your inability to understand the dripping sarcasm coming off that definition of the word "accurate" then no wonder you're fooled hook, line and sinker.
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Hahaha, God isn't limited by time, it doesn't matter on what date the prayer was held
I didn't say that God was limited by time. And I am not the one who asked for prayers to be said on a specific day - that was TB Joshua.
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If you want to go into a discussion of what was the point of praying on any other day other than the day of the accident, we would begin speculating again. From the relevant passage its clear that 24 April was only the day on which the prayer was to be held, there is no indication in that passage that suggests that that was the day on which the prophecy would be fulfilled.
As I have shown there are a number of indications that the 24th April was the intended day. And the choice of the day for prayers to be said is one. Simply suggesting that there might be other reasons does not negate it as evidence.
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This isn't a valid argument because like I already said the prophecy in itself is a warning and any family that was planning to travel during that time would perceive if it as a warning. There is no need for him to be explicit. The prophecy serves as a warning it is saying what will happen if you board a claim on a Friday. The fact is there is nothing in there, in the statement that suggests that the thing had already happened.
In other words you simply ASSUME that a reminder and reinforcement FOR THE VERY DAY THAT THE CRASH WILL HAPPEN is not a good idea. But you don't give any reason why.
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Haha I think your ditching your former meaning because you know you made a blunder, lets take a look at what you said:
The idea that Joshua meant to give a specific date rather than something like "last" or "fourth" is implausible.
What could this statement possibly mean apart from what it says, its clear, and basic English that you have used.
Isn't it interesting how I tell you that you are ignoring the context - and you ignore the context again. And you say it is clear English - and ignore the fact that your reading makes it horribly unclear. My explanation - unlike tyour "clear" reading does NOT involve contradictions.
For the record, here is the point I was arguing against from Message 76:
"Friday of the month" could mean the "22th Friday of the May month" our additions have one thing in common, both are based on speculation, call it plausible speculation, its still speculation, and the word plausible doesn't give any more weight to speculation, as plausible things don't always happen.
You were arguing that when Joshua said "Friday of the Month" he might have meant to say "22th Friday of the May month".
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arguing that he didn't meant 22nd May BECAUSE the crash happened on the 22nd May IS also question-begging !
Indeed it would be. However I have not made that argument. You, on the other hand, have more than once argued that the fact that the crash happened on the 22nd of May IS a reason to think that Joshua meant 22nd May !
Fine, yeah, right. I'll just ignore the fact that there have been many exclamations by the jehovah's witnesses about the end of the world (so far all wrong), many exclamations by various doomsday cults that the mother ship would come get them (periodically either poisoning themselves or being told that they were so righteous that the earth was spared) and, well, every prophet ever, really.
So far TB Joshua has not had one unfulfilled prophecy, and all of them were fulfilled within short amounts of time. Some just a few days difference like two or three days, one in fact happened on the same day it as prophesied.
Interesting theory, but not likely, this prophecies are made during life broadcasts, and in front of skeptics, doubters and critics.
There are conmen in this world. I am just the simple methods that have been developed over the years to protect myself against them. Maybe the prophecies are made during live broadcasts in front of all the people you say they did. The question is - are they the same as the prophecies that are later released by Emmanuel TV after the event as evidence of some power?
The only way we can know this with any confidence is with an uncut recording of the prophecy.
Not everyone who goes to a SCOAN meeting is there for the word you know, and since thousands of random people attend the SCOAN from all over, to pull such a stunt is not only risky but foolish.
Many Conmen can still make money on a con even after their con is revealed.
If the recordings were messed with the thousands of people that were in attendance and were viewing live can point it out.
Maybe, maybe not. I certainly don't remember the exact wording somebody used in a speech I heard over a month ago.
What evidence can you provide for your claim.
Check out the cut for yourself at about 33 seconds in, just before "Friday of the month".
How do you know there were cuts.
1. The camera angle changes with a fade. 2. He says "something happens in the air.", and then puts his arms down. The next thing he says is "Friday of the month" and his right hand starts as being raised. 3. The intonation implies it was the last part of a sentence, not a complete sentence that makes no sense on its own.
abe: There is another unusual cut at about 59 seconds in,
"if you are moving with family, your children, yourself,"
Camera cut, Joshua changes position and says "please read..." and his tone changes considerably suggesting the two fragments weren't part of the same sentence originally.
I have seen many SCOAN productions and their videos are of good sound and picture quality that footage you saw is probably of poor qaulity that is why I suggested you get a dvd version from the SCOAN.
The quality doesn't change the camera cut. It can be in glorious HD and it will still be there.
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So far TB Joshua has not had one unfulfilled prophecy, and all of them were fulfilled within short amounts of time. Some just a few days difference like two or three days, one in fact happened on the same day it as prophesied.
If you beleived that you would have had no problem taking up my challenge issued at the start of the thread.
As I have shown there are a number of indications that the 24th April was the intended day. And the choice of the day for prayers to be said is one. Simply suggesting that there might be other reasons does not negate it as evidence.
Like I showed in my previous post that you sloppily ran through, because if you had read I pointed out why the day of prayer means nothing as far as Christianity is concerned only Muslims and possibly other religions have stimulated prayer times. As for Christianity a prayer is all the same effective whether done on a Monday or a Friday. Therefore your use of the day of prayer as evidence fails because the time of prayer is irrelevant in Christianity. and also the textual evidence only suggests that TB Joshua appointed 24 April as the day of prayer not the day on which the prophecy would unfold.
Simply suggesting that there might be other reasons does not negate it as evidence.
You have no evidence. i took your little argument it reaped it to shreds. If you missed where I have done this please read all my previous replies to you.
In other words you simply ASSUME that a reminder and reinforcement FOR THE VERY DAY THAT THE CRASH WILL HAPPEN is not a good idea. But you don't give any reason why.
Why do you keep assuming that TB Joshua knew the very day of the crash. He probably didn't know the exact date that tragedy would happen, and there is no evidence that he did know this data, thus your argument fails, here even before it can take off.
You were arguing that when Joshua said "Friday of the Month" he might have meant to say "22th Friday of the May month".
He could also have meant "on a Friday of the next month" I'm only speculating.
As I have shown there are a number of indications that the 24th April was the intended day. And the choice of the day for prayers to be said is one. Simply suggesting that there might be other reasons does not negate it as evidence.
Like I showed in my previous post that you sloppily ran through, because if you had read I pointed out why the day of prayer means nothing as far as Christianity is concerned only Muslims and possibly other religions have stimulated prayer times. As for Christianity a prayer is all the same effective whether done on a Monday or a Friday. Therefore your use of the day of prayer as evidence fails because the time of prayer is irrelevant in Christianity. and also the textual evidence only suggests that TB Joshua appointed 24 April as the day of prayer not the day on which the prophecy would unfold.
Simply suggesting that there might be other reasons does not negate it as evidence.
You have no evidence. i took your little argument it reaped it to shreds. If you missed where I have done this please read all my previous replies to you.
In other words you simply ASSUME that a reminder and reinforcement FOR THE VERY DAY THAT THE CRASH WILL HAPPEN is not a good idea. But you don't give any reason why.
Why do you keep assuming that TB Joshua knew the very day of the crash. He probably didn't know the exact date that tragedy would happen, and there is no evidence that he did know this data, thus your argument fails, here even before it can take off.
You were arguing that when Joshua said "Friday of the Month" he might have meant to say "22th Friday of the May month".
He could also have meant "on a Friday of the next month" I'm only speculating.
Remember earlier I said that its possible that TB Joshua might not have known the actual date of the prophecy's fulfillment only that it was a Friday, so if he did honestly think it was the 24th April(there is nothing that suggests that he thought this was the day by the way), that doesn't mean his prophecy was mistaken, no it means he wasn't sure if it was that Friday or the next.
Name these millions of prophets along with the prophecies and also demonstrate that their prophecies were made before the events they prophesied would happen.
Only one need be proven false to debunk the entirety of the infallible claim. Look no further than than the prophecy of Tyre, which claims that Tyre would be desolate for all time. That, obviously, is not even remotely true, as today Tyre is still a thriving port.
quote:When I make you a desolate city, like cities no longer inhabited, and when I bring the ocean depths over you and its vast waters cover you... I will bring you to a horrible end and you will be no more. You will be sought, but you will never again be found, declares the Sovereign LORD. --Ezekiel 26
Not only is it inhabited, but it has been continuously inhabited since its inception. What's more it is not underwater and never has been. Completely false, which therefore makes it a false prophecy.
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams
There are conmen in this world. I am just the simple methods that have been developed over the years to protect myself against them. Maybe the prophecies are made during live broadcasts in front of all the people you say they did. The question is - are they the same as the prophecies that are later released by Emmanuel TV after the event as evidence of some power?
If they are not someone will speak up. listen here it is highly unlikely I mean highly that out of all the thousands of people that attend the SCOAN meetings not even one critic is present, but the fact is critics do attend the services and in large amounts, just some time back a critic from Europe attended the services and came back with the conclusion that the works of this man are genuine there are many other documented cases of critics who attend the SCOAN even murder attempts. Now what I would like to say is this, critics and haters and skeptics and everyone want to verify if this guy is a fraud or the real deal, its only likely that in the case of a prophecy they would jot down his exact words that in case the prophecy fails they can use that against his ministry.
Truly it is highly unlikely that people don't jot down his prophecies as he tells them. Just use your mind here.
As to the clip ,I can't view it, my server won't allow it. But I encourage to get the original tapes from the SCOAN web store with better quality and if you still see the cuts there, you have reason then to be suspicious.
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Like I showed in my previous post that you sloppily ran through, because if you had read I pointed out why the day of prayer means nothing as far as Christianity is concerned only Muslims and possibly other religions have stimulated prayer times. As for Christianity a prayer is all the same effective whether done on a Monday or a Friday. Therefore your use of the day of prayer as evidence fails because the time of prayer is irrelevant in Christianity. and also the textual evidence only suggests that TB Joshua appointed 24 April as the day of prayer not the day on which the prophecy would unfold.
You fail to address my rebuttal. TB Joshua was the one who said to pray on a specific day - not me. He felt that it was somehow important to pray on that day rather than another. THAT is my point !
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You have no evidence. i took your little argument it reaped it to shreds. If you missed where I have done this please read all my previous replies to you.
I have read them, and no, you have not shredded my argument.
Even worse for you the evidence of editing in the video produced by Modulous suggests that the transcription omits words too, without giving any indication that this has been done.
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Why do you keep assuming that TB Joshua knew the very day of the crash
I DON'T assume that. Although you have done so, quite frequently.
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He probably didn't know the exact date that tragedy would happen, and there is no evidence that he did know this data, thus your argument fails, here even before it can take off.
You were the one who said that "Friday of the Month" indicated a specific day. And that there will be a family killed in a jet crash on some Friday at some time is, sadly, an inevitability.
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He could also have meant "on a Friday of the next month" I'm only speculating.
That would be more plausible, although it goes against your idea that he meant a specific day - and simply speculating that he might have been right is not proof that he was right (remember you are the one claiming to have proof of the supernatural - I don't have to prove that he was definitely wrong, all I haver to do is show that there is reasonable doubt).
However, now that we have evidence suggesting that there were preceding words - omitted from the publically available video AND the transcription - it seems likely that the missing word or words WERE spoken and preceded "Friday of the month".
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Remember earlier I said that its possible that TB Joshua might not have known the actual date of the prophecy's fulfillment only that it was a Friday, so if he did honestly think it was the 24th April(there is nothing that suggests that he thought this was the day by the way), that doesn't mean his prophecy was mistaken, no it means he wasn't sure if it was that Friday or the next.
As I have already shown there are several reasons to think that he did mean 24th April. And "a Friday" is very unimpressive..
It mostly has to do with seeing scam artists that function identically to how this man is operating. With that, I have seen countless people promised "Hope" and "Charity" in exchange for MONEY. There have even been people cleaned completely out, for the mere promise of prayer "healing" of their cancer.
The fact that you have to go to a NIGERIAN scam site to find substantiating statements for your claim, is quite telling of your lack of any real evidence.
Cedre writes:
you want to refute documented evidence of fulfilled prophecies with a mere statement
I'm sorry, but "documented evidence" is NOT the same as "claims written down on a NIGERIAN website".
It's pretty funny for someone to classify an American Heart Journal citation of exact relevance to the topic as a "mere statement".
-------------------------- Funny, your own citation in the OP stated this:
quote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._B._Joshua#Controversies The Pentecostal Fellowship of Nigeria (PFN), an umbrella association of Nigerian Pentecostal Churches, refused admission to the Synagogue Church, denouncing T. B. Joshua as an impostor
Kind of hard to build up his legitimacy, when one of the few legitimate institutions on Nigeria won't endorse him.
Edited by Michamus, : Did some more research
Edited by Michamus, : Corrected the quote box
How hard they must find it, those who take authority as truth, rather than truth as the authority. -unknown
It's not what you know, it's if you know how to find it. -Me
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