Christian Laws

Here below is one of the Hymns in the Hymnal used by the churches in the Lord's recovery on taking Christ Himself as our all in all.It is very good in turning our focus back from law keeping to the living Person of Christ Himself. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Rich's post was very good. This point he makes has been basically made before in this thread.Now as the the question of Paul's authority. What makes Paul an authority is the complaint raised by the church raised up from his ministry, the church in Corinth. In the letter of Second Corinthians God has preserved for us Paul's being forced to address this challenge.The Corinthians, ever suspicious that this little man was putting himself out to be more than he ought, forced Paul to speak as a fool and expound on his apostolic calling.I would only say here that Peter, James, and John recognized the grace given to this newcomer and extended the right hand of fellowship to him as a coworker in the apostolic work (Gal. 2:7-10). And this seems to have occured after more than a decade of Paul's preparation by God. We also see that before this the Holy Spirit, had explicitly separated Paul and Barnabas out for "the work" - apostolic work of raising up local churches. This was probably the beginning of Paul's apostolic ministry. He was previously a faithful functioning teacher and gospel preacher. However, in His early conversion, Christ had made it known to Paul that he was to be a chosen vessel for the apostolic work. Christ telling a reluctant Ananias to go baptize this former persecutor:"But the Lord said to him, Go, for this man is a chosen vessel to Me, to bear My name before both the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel: For I will show him how many things he must suffer on behalf of My name." (Acts 9:15,16)We also see the Apostle Peter recommend Paul's wisdom and refer to his letters as Scripture. So his letters were circulating around the churches and were held in the highest regard by the original apostles: Luke speaks of "extraordinary miracles" done by Paul in the same manner in which they issued from Peter:"And God did works of power of no ordinary kind through the hands of Paul ..." (Acts 19:11)" .... they (Paul and Barnabas) spent a considerable amount of time speaking with boldness in the Lord, who testified to the word of His grace by granting signs and wonders to be done through their hands." (Acts 14:3)Paul with Barnabas was highly recommended by the council of apostles and elders in Jerusalem and sent with letters to strengthen the Gentiles in the local churches. In such a letter they wrote: Paul's apostleship is clear. And it is no accident that of the 27 New Testament books about 13 were authored by this servant of Christ.Like the Corinthians, some still may quarrel over this point, questioning Paul's apostolic ministry. Such complaints sometimes come from people who might question any apostle of Christ's right to lay before us authoritatively the teaching of Jesus.But Jesus said that He would send some apostles and that to receive them was to receive Him which was in turn to receive the One Who sent Jesus, the Father: Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Obviously you reject Christ's pronouncement upon the Apostle Paul that he was a chosen vessel.But it is no surprise because perhaps you do not recognize Christ has having any authority either.This is not a matter of having to verify the spiritual authority of an apostle. This is the matter of someone not wanting to receive that service. I regard Paul's authority as his slave service to the church. Paul is my slave. The authority bestowed upon the apostles is their authority to be poured out as a drink offering and slave away for the church.If he is not an apostle of Christ to you, purpledawn, he certainly is an apostle to me. If you do not receive his pouring out of his labors for the Christians as a slave, I receive it.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The original question that I addressed was:"What makes Paul an authority?"Those are your words to Rich. I discussed with you the apostolic authority of Paul. So are you shifting the goal post around or what?quote: Paul had the authority to teach whatever he taught in the New Testament based on his apostleship. All his letters and whatever is contained therein flow from his authority as an apostle of Christ.I am not proving Paul changed laws or Paul didn't change laws. I am addressing your question "What made Paul an authority?" ... your words, not mine.Perhaps you needed to phrase it more particularly. But "What makes Paul an authority?" has been address. That's tough talk. Should I be kind of quivering in my shoes or what?The question that I read was "What makes Paul an authority?"Okay, I'll humor you. One thing Paul discussed which I don't think Christ is recorded to have discussed is circumcisism. Paul taught that it was not a requirement of eternal redemption. I don't think I can recall Jesus specifically teaching that. He could have and it was not recorded.But nonetheless, Paul did change to the legal emphasis on circumcisism. His authority to do so stems from him being Christ's apostle.And if you don't question God - The Word was with God and the Word was God and the Word became flesh. So God in Christ pronounced that Paul was a chosen vessel, therefore being especially chosen as he was, God invested his apostle with the necessary authority.And if you have a problem with what I just said, then I repeat - You probably do not consider that Christ has authority either. I'd be happy to hear that you do believe in the incarnation of the Logos Who was God as the man Jesus of Nazareth. Come right out and declare your belief that Jesus Christ is God incarnate. Or come right out and deny it.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Nonsense.One is not justified unto eternal life through works of the law.It should be obvious that if God did not care how the justified Christian lived ever after being justified by faith, there would not be so many exhortations how to live (by the grace of Christ), in the New Testament.Actually, Paul writes "As you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him." The disciples began by faith and were eternally redeemed and eternally justified. For their daily live's tranasformation they should continue in faith. That is trusting that the indwelling Christ can permeate their new life causing them to walk righteously.Those exhortations to live righteously after being redeemed would included both exhortations of Jesus and of the letter writing apostles. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

As expected, total evasion of the issue of whether you regard Christ as having authority either, let alone His apostles, including Paul.You wrote above that your point is that Paul did not change laws.Okay. I have little problem with that. Paul said that Christ was the END of the law. There is no need to tamper with it. There is the need to be joined to Christ.That is Paul's central message. Downplaying the need for circumcism, whether changing the law or playing down the law, was done by Paul.Some may regard that as changing. Some may not. The point I make is that Christ is Paul's total focus, for Christ is the end of the law.It is like someone giving a person 100 million dollars and that person is still anxious that he can save on his own a few quarters of change.In terms of eternal redemption, Christ has been given by God to the believers. He is MORE than enough. He is the end of the law unto rightouesness to everyone who believes. God has exhausted righteousness on behalf of the sinner in Christ, in terms of his being justified before God forever.After being justified there is the need for transformation into Christ's image. That is because justification is not an end in itself. Conformity to the image of Christ is the intended issue that must follow after justification.Essentially, the Christians eternal redemption is settled forever. His reward is related to how much He allowed the sanctification process to conform him to the image of Christ.Eternal redemption is a Gift.
In addition to the Gift there is the reward of cooperating with the indwelling Spirit of Christ to conform one to the image of Christ.One is a matter of a righteous position. The other is a matter of a righteous disposition.One is a matter of a righteous standing. The other is a matter of a righteous walking.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You seemed not to have read the book of Galatians."Behold, I Paul say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circimcised that he is a deptor to do the whole law. You have been brought to nought, [separated] from Christ, you who are being justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

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For we by the Spirit out of faith eagerly await the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision avails anything nor uncircumcision, but faith [avails], operating through love." (Galatians 5:2-6) "For neither is circumcisism anything nor uncircumcisism, but a new creation is what matters. And as many as walk by this rule, peace be upon them and mercy, even upon the Israel of God." (Gal. 6:15,16)This Paul downplaying circumcism to the Galatian disciples. Those are of faith in Christ are Abraham's seed. Those who walk in Christ are the "Israel of God"There is no need to be circumcised to be the bonafide descendent of Abraham now. For Paul writes "Know then that they who are of faith, these are the sons of Abraham" (Gal. 2:7)The author of Acts is Luke.The need to be circumcised to be saved was contrary to justification by faith which Christ taught, and Peter the first gospel preacher also taught in obediance to Christ, standing with the other 11 apostles.In Galatians, Paul said the Jews seeking to be justified by circumcism would not be profited by Christ and had fallen from grace.Read Galatians. And it might help not to decide that it too is by an "unknown author". I understand it is popular to do so among skeptics of the New Testament.

Paul's clarity in writing about the need to forsake the Jewish rituals did intensify after his experiene with trying to placate the Jewish Christians in the Jerusalem.James boasted that the believers were all zealous to keep the law of Moses. James advized Paul to do something to nullify their suspicion that Paul was teaching against the customs of Moses.Paul went along with James. James still had one foot in the Old Covenant and one foot in the New Covenant. Paul took James's advice. But God seems not to have honored this political move. The entire affair blew up in Paul's face. They dragged him out of the temple, locked the door, and would have stoned him. Paul appeased no one by pretending to still be a teacher of the Mosaic law keeping.The early church in Jerusalem had not grasped yet how radical a turn God had made in the new covenant. This shows the transition of the people of God from the old way into the new way.After this experience Paul was stronger and wrote his strongest letters saying that the old covenant was over. At this point Paul may have realized that of all the apostles he seemed to be the clearest what God had done in establishing a new covenenat.I could be wrong about that. However, it seems clear that after his Jerusalem disaster he became very much more resolute never to try to water down the gospel of Justification in Christ by faith.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

You talk about we are not talking about this and we are not talking about that. Seems we are "not talking" about so many things, it is hard to follow what you are talking about.I'm not going back to the beginning of this thread to read all the entries. I see you allude to some points that I had to make clear to you, which you now seem to have added to your arsenal, to prove, I'm not sure what. "Lose their spot" .... the phrase is kind of vague. If you mean lose eternal redemption, no, the saved cannot "lose their spot" in that regard.But let me see if I can find a point here. I haven't said the redeemed can "lose justification from wrong behavior". And if I elaborate you will probably complain that we are not talking about that. But to make myself clear I have to talk about that because, evidently, you don't understand.I HAVE said that one could lose the "reward" through something like that. But if I try to elaborate on the distinction between the gift of eternal redemption and the reward in the coming kingdom, I suspect that you will object - "But we are not talking about Justification".Part of the problem may be here that in order (for me at least) to clarify something by drawing up distinctions, I have to talk about it. You may have a knee jerk reaction that "But we are not talking about that." But for my purposes we HAVE to talk about that to make the matter make sense.But moving on, let's see what else you say here. Okay. I follow you here. Somehow this is suppose to be related to "Christian Laws".At this point I may not answer these posts in order. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

In Christ's case to accomplish God's eternal redemption and build the church, establish the kingdom, inherit the universe, be Lord of all.In Paul's case it includes authority to preach to define and preach the gospel, define doctrines for the Christian church, establish churches, and complete the word of God. That sounds like what I have been saying. I do NOT vouch that that is what Peg is saying. It appears what Rich was saying. I know that there are light years of difference between Peg's theology and Rich's.I might not put it the same way though. Christians should not be putting each other under the bondage of legality. Christians, if they intend to preach the gospel, should not be instructing people to follow the law of Moses to be reconciled to God.Christians involved in political activity to see that a country passes good laws which they deem are reflective or reminiscient of even identical to laws of Moses, is their personal business, IMO.I do not consider that Gospel preaching. And I know that some people are mad that Christians would be telling them not to do this or that in accordance to the law of Moses.I think there is a distinction betweem what a Christian, or any other faith based practitioner, does as a political or social activism and their teaching the basic tenets of their faith.If I as a Christian instruct my neighber's kid not to steal my kid's bicycle that is not Gospel preaching per se. And it is stupid for you to react to that, scolding me "Christians should not be pulling 'thou shalt not steal' out of the law of Moses' as a behavior requirement."The same applies the other way around. I made my kid go back to the store and return some candy that he stole. He should not steal. Yes, the law of Moses says it. And other documents say it.You can't say "But as a Christian you should not take from the law of Moses and tell your kid not to steal." Sure I can. Law is a schoolmaster leading us to grace anyway.Check the scope of your criticism. Don't stretch it out too far as to be absurd. Once again, for me at least, I HAVE to talk about Justification in order to help you understand the difference between the "final inheritance" and a temporary reward, which can be lost.I think I did this in posts past. I don't think you understand or you would not use (with me at least) the phrase "lose final inheritance".And if I continue to explain and go over it again, then you say I'm babbling.If I thought it got through then probably I wouldn't have to babble. The issue for the disciple is not right and wrong but spiritual life or spiritual death.And that requires much discussion. Paul said "the mind set on the spirit is life and peace". The standard for the one walking in the Spirit is life and peace. The goal is conformatity to the image of Christ. The failure may result in the lose of temporary reward and not the lose of "final inheritance".I am saying nothing new that I have no elaborated on before.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I don't follow you at all. The crack about babbling is disrespectful.And I already pointed out the historical transition that the apostles went through. Paul did circumcize someone to facilitate gospel preaching. True. But his strongest letters against circucision occured after he learned some lessons in the blow up at Jerusalem.He saw it did not pay to have one foot in the law of Moses like James. Can you point out ANYTHING in Galatians, written after this event, that Paul cared anything about the practice ?And Luke wrote Acts.That's part of your problem. You just don't take what the New Testament says. It says something. But you just don't accept it. Or you take it selectively submitting it to some volume unknown to me, that you are measuring everything by.Is Prof. Eardman your main enfluence ??I think that that is part of your problem. You don't believe what it says. Okay, the strong evidence is that Luke wrote it - Acts 1:1,2), and other indications of the accompanying of Paul in his journeys.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I think this is largely rhetoric. Many people who simply do not believe the clear statements of the Bible rear the "dogma" excuse to reject what is written.Watch.John 1:1 aays "the Word was God." John 1:14 says the Word became flesh. Do you believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh ?Yes or No?Is Jesus God?Yes or No ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

My reply to this post (if I find time to reply) will be transfered to the thread entitled "Divinity of Jesus". Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

It would like to add to Rich's post that there is more than one judgment.The "judgment seat of Christ" (2 Cor. 5:10) is where all those saved must appear to be "manifested" and rewarded or disciplined for their walk in Christ after they were saved. The "great white throne" is where the sentence of eternal punishment ultimately pronounced (Rev. 20:11-15)No unbeliever in Christ is qualified to stand before the bema seat (judgment seat) of Christ. And to arrive there one can be assured that she or he will not perish in eternal perdition.But the great white throne judgment is not the same judgment. And there the result of not having one's name written in the book of life is eternal damnation.The disciple of Jesus must walk in light of the judgment seat of Christ where all the saved must give an account of thier lives after Christ entered into them as the Holy Spirit.The disciple of Jesus is accountable before Christ for the receiving of reward or discipline at the judgment seat of Christ (which is also called the judgment seat of God) - (Romans 14:10; 1 Cor. 5:10)At the judgment seat of Christ what is determined is position or status in the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. This age of the millennial kingdom preceeds the eternal age which is the common gift of all the saved (Rev. 20:2,4,5,6,7)The eternal age of the new heaven and new earth begins to be discribed after the thousand years (Revelation 21,22)[/b]I would add that the fact that some Christians are ignorant of this does not change its reality and accountability.Since all of us who are disciples of Jesus are to be manifested before His judgement seat, He teaches us that we should be merciful that also may obtain mercy:"Blessed are the merciful for they shall be shown mercy" (Matt. 5:7)And the disciples should not be quick to judge for in doing so they will be judged in like manner as they judge others:"Do not judge, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you." (Matt. 7:1,2)The principle of the kingdom of the heavens is that the Christian must be strict towards himself but merciful and accomodating towards others. This is opposite of typical human nature. Human nature is to be loose and merciful with the self and strict and exacting towards others.The kingdom people, the Christians, must be the opposite. Towards others they must be liberal and lenient. Towards themselves they must be exacting and strict. That is strict to remain close to the Lord Jesus to be empowered to walk in Him and by His righteous nature which has been imparted into them.In short, the person who rejects Christ as their Savior will not be saved because they are merciful to others. If their name is not recorded in the book of life they will perish. And rejecting Jesus will cause them to perish.However the one whose name is in the book of life and is saved eternally, may obtain mercy from Christ concerning his position in the millennial kingdom. If he was merciful he may obtain mercy. If he was sloppy towards himself yet strict and exacting towards everyone else, he is in trouble.To the unbeliever who rejects the Son of God, whether he is merciful or not, it will not save him. He will perish because he disbelieves in the Son of God.To put first things first - First it is crucial to be saved through believing into Christ. Then it is crucial to allow Christ to spread and grow in the heart that we may be more and more conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son of God. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Purpledawn,You are continually telling everyone what this thread is NOT about.I don't think this thread is about anyone providing you with any answers at all. I think to you this thread is about you asking questions and boasting that no one supposedly can give you answers. You certainly don't accept any explanations which I think some of which have been reasonable.I think in your mind this thread really is about you not getting your answer.Let's assume then that no one has an answer for your inquiry. This goes to prove just what ?I mean alledgedly no one can give you some kind of "list" to answer your challenge, therefore the points holds that ..... exactly what?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.