Christian Laws

Bailey writes:you do realize that in these instances, Jesus is actually claiming divinity, again. By making these statements,he is saying to the person, you are calling me "good", do you understand what your statement implies. Jesus was in effect saying to him, you have implied that I am God. At another time, he said, "Before Abraham was I AM". In both instances he is claiming divinityEAM

I was looking at your earlier post 6.PurpleDawn writes:
"I keep asking because Christians can't produce their own standards of behavior and provide support that those standards carry a death penalty from God on judgment day."One example of 'standards carrying a death penalty' is in Romans 1:29-32.1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity;
1:30 Whisperers, slanderers, hateful to God, insolent, arrogant, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
1:31 Senseless, faithless, affectionless, merciless;
1:32 Who, though fully knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, not only do them, but also have fellow delight in those who practice them.These verses list a number of evil attitudes and practices which are noted as being 'worthy of death'. Here, the persons refered to are those who have forsaked God. But everyone is susceptible to these forms of evil, including Christians. Most refer to inward evils, yet they are listed as causing those who practice them to be counted worthy of death.Peter enjoins the Christian readers of his first epistle to avoid several of the things listed by Paul.2:1 Therefore putting away all malice and all guile and hypocrisies and envyings and all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, long for the guileless milk of the word in order that by it you may grow unto salvationI would say that many of them are 'seeds', that, if allowed to grow, will produce more evil fruit. I have found them in my own heart, much to my alarm. I would say these negative items are on my list of things to avoid and / or eliminate.As far as accountability, I believe the ultimate accountability is to God because of the coming judgment, and to our own conscience as God's representative within. Paul mentions these things - the coming judgment and the place of our conscience - in his defense before Felix in Acts 24.24:15 Having hope toward God, which these themselves also look for, that there is to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.
24:16 Because of this I also exercise myself to always have a conscience without offense toward God and men.If we believe in a coming judgment, it should change our way of living and we should pay attention to our conscience in this. Paul mentions a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous. I believe he considered himself among the righteous, and yet he was still execrised to live in a careful way because there will be a judgment of the the righteous and the unrighteous.I will say something about the need for justification and salvation in a later post.

It would like to add to Rich's post that there is more than one judgment.The "judgment seat of Christ" (2 Cor. 5:10) is where all those saved must appear to be "manifested" and rewarded or disciplined for their walk in Christ after they were saved. The "great white throne" is where the sentence of eternal punishment ultimately pronounced (Rev. 20:11-15)No unbeliever in Christ is qualified to stand before the bema seat (judgment seat) of Christ. And to arrive there one can be assured that she or he will not perish in eternal perdition.But the great white throne judgment is not the same judgment. And there the result of not having one's name written in the book of life is eternal damnation.The disciple of Jesus must walk in light of the judgment seat of Christ where all the saved must give an account of thier lives after Christ entered into them as the Holy Spirit.The disciple of Jesus is accountable before Christ for the receiving of reward or discipline at the judgment seat of Christ (which is also called the judgment seat of God) - (Romans 14:10; 1 Cor. 5:10)At the judgment seat of Christ what is determined is position or status in the 1,000 year millennial kingdom. This age of the millennial kingdom preceeds the eternal age which is the common gift of all the saved (Rev. 20:2,4,5,6,7)The eternal age of the new heaven and new earth begins to be discribed after the thousand years (Revelation 21,22)[/b]I would add that the fact that some Christians are ignorant of this does not change its reality and accountability.Since all of us who are disciples of Jesus are to be manifested before His judgement seat, He teaches us that we should be merciful that also may obtain mercy:"Blessed are the merciful for they shall be shown mercy" (Matt. 5:7)And the disciples should not be quick to judge for in doing so they will be judged in like manner as they judge others:"Do not judge, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you." (Matt. 7:1,2)The principle of the kingdom of the heavens is that the Christian must be strict towards himself but merciful and accomodating towards others. This is opposite of typical human nature. Human nature is to be loose and merciful with the self and strict and exacting towards others.The kingdom people, the Christians, must be the opposite. Towards others they must be liberal and lenient. Towards themselves they must be exacting and strict. That is strict to remain close to the Lord Jesus to be empowered to walk in Him and by His righteous nature which has been imparted into them.In short, the person who rejects Christ as their Savior will not be saved because they are merciful to others. If their name is not recorded in the book of life they will perish. And rejecting Jesus will cause them to perish.However the one whose name is in the book of life and is saved eternally, may obtain mercy from Christ concerning his position in the millennial kingdom. If he was merciful he may obtain mercy. If he was sloppy towards himself yet strict and exacting towards everyone else, he is in trouble.To the unbeliever who rejects the Son of God, whether he is merciful or not, it will not save him. He will perish because he disbelieves in the Son of God.To put first things first - First it is crucial to be saved through believing into Christ. Then it is crucial to allow Christ to spread and grow in the heart that we may be more and more conformed to the image of the Firstborn Son of God. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

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I will say something about the need for justification and salvation in a later post.

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This thread isn't about justification and salvation. It is about Christian Laws and God's Laws. Still waiting for a list with support that they carry a penalty from God on judgment day or at any time.The text says worthy of death, not that there is actually a death penalty for the action from God.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Aren't you splitting hairs? Worthy of death is pretty bad. II Pet. 3:9 says that God is not willing that any perish, but that all come to repentance. A continued course on a road labeled "Danger" will lead to destruction. This is clearly indicated in a number of verses.But I will mention some other verses later.

Whenever one is held accountable by God, what standards is one held accountable to? Don't say God's laws without listing them and providing support that they are from God and not just later suggestions on how to behave.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

What do you accept as proof of divine origin?

Purpledawn,You are continually telling everyone what this thread is NOT about.I don't think this thread is about anyone providing you with any answers at all. I think to you this thread is about you asking questions and boasting that no one supposedly can give you answers. You certainly don't accept any explanations which I think some of which have been reasonable.I think in your mind this thread really is about you not getting your answer.Let's assume then that no one has an answer for your inquiry. This goes to prove just what ?I mean alledgedly no one can give you some kind of "list" to answer your challenge, therefore the points holds that ..... exactly what?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This thread is based on something Peg and I discussed in another thread. See Message 6. I made it clear in Message 316 that my issue is with Christians who make comments like Peg and Richh, which I quoted in Message 316.My contention is that there are no Christian Laws.Like Hillel before him, Jesus brought a more humane and universal notion of Torah interpretation. The spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law. If one gets the spirit right, the details will take care of themselves.We look at what the authors are trying to tell their audience and bring that spirit forward when obeying the laws of our own individual nations all the way down to our communities and families.There are no Christian laws, there are only Christian principles derived from the spirit of the ancient writings and the experiences of people who have gone before. Message 114

And I gave you quite a few principles and asked for their parellels in the Old Testament. You were not able to show me.So my point is that there is much more to the New Testament besides re-hashing old laws. It should be clear that the New Testament is not a re-hash of the Code of Hammarabi. That is unless you can point out the indwelling, the abiding in God as a living Person with whom man may mutually blend."Abide in Me and I in you" I previously submitted as the all-incompassing responsibility of the Christian. The crux of the matter is that Jesus is alive, knowable, and men and women can abide in Him as a living sphere and realm of divine life.If I wanted to add an 11th commandment to create a NT list is would be Thou Shalt abide in Jesus the resurrected Lord. Anyway, I think we have come full circle again.Too much of the New Testament has no parellel in any religious teaching of man on earth. There is no teacher I can think of promising to come to make an abode in His lovers with His Father God (John 14:23). And chapter 15 uses the verb form of the noun "abode" in saying "Abide in Me and I in you" (John 15:4)Jesus is clear in the fifteenth chapter of John that without abiding in Him the disciples can do nothing. Put another way - without abiding in Jesus we may do a whole lot. But it will count as nothing to God's eternal purpose and kingdom. This is because God only want Christ. He wants Christ lived out in and through man. He wants Christ to live again on the earth, but this time within you and within me and within those who believe into Christ.Romans 8 "walk according to spirit" for the fulfillment of the just requirement of the law of God is exactly equal to "Abide in Me and I in you" in John's Gospel. That is because "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17) And "The Lord be with your spirit" (2 Tim. 4:22)Sorry to bore you Purpledawn. This is written for reasons of repetition and for those who haven't yet seen it in this thread.Brother Richh, this question is for you.What does the term "lawlessness" refer to in so many places in, ie. letters to Timothy, Titus, and one of the Peter epistles?Perhaps you could also say a word about Christ having "abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments in ordinances" (Eph. 2:15) Is there particular meaning to the phrase "commandments IN ORDINANCES" as to specify ordinances of a perhaps reitualistic rather than moral content?I mean if "the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit" the Apostle Paul must mean the moral requirement of the law rather than the ritualistic ordinances which Christ has abolished.

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And I gave you quite a few principles and asked for their parellels in the Old Testament. You were not able to show me.

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I responded in Message 224.

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That is unless you can point out the indwelling, the abiding in God as a living Person with whom man may mutually blend.

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Those aren't "things" that can be consistently characterized. You can't even tell someone if they are abiding, or have an indwelling, etc. No one can tell if they are doing it right. How do these "things" manifest themselves in reality?

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

Purpledawn, I would preface this post by reminding you that part of the new covenant that was promised through Jeremish the prophet was that God Himself would teach each one to live according to the living laws imparted into them:"For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will impart my laws into their mind, and on thier hearts I will inscribe them; and I will be God to them, and they will be a people unto Me.

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And they shall by no means each teach his fellow citizen and each his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for all will know Me from the little one to the great one among them." (See Heb. 8:10,11) Purpledawn, we have for the New Testament to aid in letting us know if we are abiding in Christ or not. When I come before the judgment of seat of Christ, I will not be able to use the excuse that the New Testament was filled with non- "things" and I didn't know if I was abiding in the Lord or not.Perhaps you feel this is an obstacle to you. I cannot for a moment reason that it is for me. If not in ALL instances I knew the will of God, in too many I DID know.If I elaborate on the many passages which indicate the indwelling Christ is teaching, training, leading the Christian, I think you will object because they are not real to you. "How does one know?" Are you raising this inquiry as one wanting the lordship of Jesus? Or are you asking from the standpoint of one skeptical of Christ's resurrection and ability to be known at all ?I am not going to refer to chapter and verse in this next paragraph. But what helps us to know is a number of scriptural matters, listed below:"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, training us that denying ungodliness and worldly lust we might live soberly and righteously and godly in the present age." (Titus 2:12)Did you see that Purpledawn? No, I mean did you really SEE that? The grace of God is presently TRAINING the believers in the risen Jesus to live godly lives, soberly in this present age.As one who has received the living Jesus into my spirit, His grace is empowering me and TRAINING me to live through Christ. He can do the same thing with you.1.) The grace of God is training us to live godly. That is in the book of Titus. Christ's indwelling is the presence of indwelling grace. This grace trains us to live godly in this present world.2.) The anointing teaches us all things related to abiding in Christ. That is in the epistle of First John. The anointing is a kind of rubbing of God's Spirit into our soul. This movement, this anointing of God's Spirit teaches the Christians "all things" according to the apostle John. I think he means all things related to abiding moment by moment in the sphere of the presence of the Spirit of Jesus."And as for you, the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all thins and is true and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, abide in Him." (1 John 2:27)Those are not just fancy words now Purpledawn. There is some couple millennia of experience behind them. A certain brother Lawrence wrote a classic Christian text called "The Practice of the Presence of God". You have the autobiographies of many Christians to consult as well as the teaching of the New Testament.3.) We have the Body of Christ, the spiritual community that acts as a kind of "organism". If you put a foreign object into your body, your body is liable to feel it and notify you that something not living is present in you.I am not taking the time to develop these concepts thoroughly. But the normal church life has the dicernment because of the presence of Christ her Head, what is of God.Do not take me mean that this is always easy. But in the last 30 some years I know that among the believers I meet with, the Holy Spirit eventually gets the last word. The mystical Body of Christ affirms who is walking according to the Spirit.4.) We have also the sense of life and peace which Paul speaks of in the book of Romans. The mind set on the spirit is life and peace. The mind set on the flesh is death. The small s spirit here is the regenerated human spirit indwelt with by the capital S Holy Spirit. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit. See Romans 8:16. This is closely related to the anointing talked about in First John.It could be ... that you simply underestimate the intimacy of the experience of the indwelling Spirit of Jesus. You could regard this kind of speaking as simply sentimental and poetic. When Jesus says [b]"Abide in Me and I in you"{/b you may not regard that as very serious. But to those of us who have discovered that this Jesus is knowable and "touchable" this is very real. The teaching of the Bible is that it is indeed very real.This is not to say that these matters are easy. This is not to say that Christians can be misled. You do not have to read too far into the books of Acts or the epistles to see that problems existed because of the superfiscial spiritual lives of Christians. But we are not going to quite because of that. Some of us intend to follow the positive encouraging examples of overcoming Christians. Some of us intend to seek help from the victorious brothers and sisters at this Chrisian walk and learn warnings from the negative examples of defeat.Anyway, I see no need to throw up hands in in perplexity at how to abide in Christ. Rather I take to heart the admonistion: "That you be not sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and long-suffering are inheriting the promises." (Heb. 6:12).

This paragraph I wrote contained a typo:I meant to write: There were other grammatical errors as well. Sorry. I am pressed as to time in the public library.

hi purpledawn,its been a while since i participated in this thread because quite honestly, you frustrate the begeebies out of me...and i mean that in the nicest possible way :wink: i just thought of an example that I hope will shed a little light on the subject of christian laws and their difference to mosiac laws.In the mosaic law, it was acceptable by that law for a man to practice polygomy. Im sure you would not disagree with that.Did you realise that the christian law was opposed to polygomy?Paul said in 1Timothy 3:2"The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife..."& 1Cor 7:22 Married people were councelled against having sex with anyone but their 1 marriage mate.... "yet, because of prevalence of fornication, let each man have his own wife and each woman have her own husband"IOW a man or woman who had sex with anyone but their marriage mate was practicing fornication. In the mosaic law, a man could have many wives and concubines and not be classified under the sin of fornication. This was not so in the christian congregation. Polygomy was not practiced because it became a christian law.do you still want to deny that the christians have their own set of laws.? Edited by Peg, : No reason given.Edited by Peg, : No reason given.

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IOW a man or woman who had sex with anyone but their marriage mate was practicing fornication. In the mosaic law, a man could have many wives and concubines and not be classified under the sin of fornication. This was not so in the christian congregation. Polygomy was not practiced because it became a christian law.

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do you still want to deny that the christians have their own set of laws.?

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Yes I still disagree. Show me that polygamy changed due to a Christian law and wasn't part of the cultures of the time. Polygamy

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz