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Author Topic:   Do fossils disprove evolution?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 11 of 121 (521280)
08-26-2009 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cpthiltz
08-26-2009 4:46 AM


An analogy of this is leaving a group of monkeys in a room with a typewriter to produce a perfect copy of Shakespeare's Hamlet through random keystrokes. You return years later and find a copy of Hamlet, but in a mess of loads of meaningless paper.
This is not an analogy of the theory of evolution. Read a biology textbook.
Why does the fossil record show little/no evidence of the millions of failed mutation which must have occurred for every successful one?
Look, do a quick reality check. Consider the species that you know best --- humans. You know that humans are subject to harmful genetic mutations, right? So, what proportion of the humans that you have seen have had harmful mutations the effects of which would be visible in the fossil record?
Right. So we should expect the fossil record to be like that.
The evolutionary prediction is that the fossil record should reflect reality. It does.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 24 of 121 (523412)
09-10-2009 4:25 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by djwray
09-09-2009 8:28 PM


Re: Fossils and evolution
"A major mystery in human evolution concerns why there is such a gigantic jump between the brains of H. habilis and H. erectus. The earlier hominoid has a brain only slightly larger than an ape; the later one a cortex as large as that of modern humanity." - Robert Ornstein, The Evolution of Consciousness
Note that the cranial capacity of H. erectus specimens overlaps that of habilis.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 46 of 121 (525600)
09-23-2009 10:35 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Coragyps
09-23-2009 8:50 PM


Re: Mutation Rates
No. His characteristic use of the word "evobabble" suggest that he escaped from the little lunatic asylum that is the evolutionfairytale forums, where they use this term to describe any facts that disagree with their delusions.
Having found that his fantasies don't cut it in the real world, he has, presumably, slunk back to his padded cell, where the walls are nice and soft and the attendants will keep him away from reality and sharp objects.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 49 of 121 (526070)
09-25-2009 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by ICdesign
09-25-2009 11:07 AM


Re: Mutation Rates
Where is the evidence that natural selection can accomlish the intricacies of bioengineering that are manifest throughout the living world?
There's the fact that when we simulate the process of reproduction with random variation plus selection, this does in fact produce intricate feats of engineering beyond the capacities of designers.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by ICdesign, posted 09-25-2009 11:07 AM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by ICdesign, posted 09-25-2009 9:17 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 78 of 121 (526149)
09-26-2009 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by ICdesign
09-25-2009 9:17 PM


Re: Mutation Rates
Your joking right Dr Adequate. If you want to impress someone lets see you simulate creating life from nothing.
You just moved the goalposts so fast that they broke the speed of sound.
In fact, the equivalent of abiogenesis has been observed in TIERRA-like simulations of evolution, in that random changes to the memory eventually produced a self-replicating program which then evolved.
I'll make it easy on you. Lets see you prove how to create significant new information from a blind non-thinking source.
That's easy. Reproduction, variation, and selection. Duh.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 79 of 121 (526151)
09-26-2009 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by ICdesign
09-26-2009 12:16 AM


Re: New information from a blind non-thinking source
Thats not new information from a blind non-thinking source. It was brought to fruition by a team of the most brilliant minds in the world.
Which of them designed the aerial?
Oh, right, it was produced by reproduction, variation and selection.
Its just like Dawkins thinking he simulated evolution on a man-made computer.
True statements do have something in common, yes.
You people are patheticly desperate.
Your skills at mind-reading are inferior even to your knowledge of biology.
The knees of Darwinism are wobbling and its only a matter of time before the hand of truth is going to slap you down!
Hehe. The fantasy that "Darwinism" is "on its knees" and that victory is just around the corner is a creationist myth that has been passed down, literally, from generation to generation of creationists.
Ex-creationist Glen Morton has aptly dubbed it "The Longest Running Falsehood In Creationism".

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 80 of 121 (526152)
09-26-2009 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by ICdesign
09-25-2009 11:21 PM


Re: New information from a blind non-thinking source
One thing before I go. (Oh, and thanks for the friendly debate)
I was just wondering what that antenna had to do with new information
to the Genome. The answer is nothing.
If you wished to know about new information to the genome, then you should have asked about new information to the genome, instead of asking a different question and then whining when you got an answer to the question you actually asked.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 81 of 121 (526153)
09-26-2009 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by ICdesign
09-25-2009 8:49 PM


Re: Both Sides
Both sides should be discussed, absolutely. The problem with Darwinism is that it is all smoke and mirrors. Where is the evidence that the sorts of incidental changes required for large-scale evolution ever occur? The evidence simply isn't there. Imagine what would happen to the germ theory of disease if scientists never found any microorganisms or viruses that produced diseases. Thats the problem with Darwinism. In place of detailed, testable accounts of how a complex biological system could REALISTICLLY have emerged, Darwinism offers handwaving just-so stories of how such systems might have emerged...in some idealized conceptual space far removed from biological reality.
Why, then does Darwinism continue to garner such a huge following, especially amoung the intellectually elites such as many of you folks?
Two reasons: 1) It provides a materialistic creation story that dispenses with any need for design or God (this is very convenient for those who want to escape the demands of religion, morality, and conscience) 2) The promise of getting design without a designer is incredibly seductive--its the ultimate free lunch.
An interesting fantasy. But I think you'll find that there is another reason why people who know more about biology than you do disagree with you about biology.
See if you can figure it out --- I've given you a fairly broad hint.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 82 of 121 (526155)
09-26-2009 1:06 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by ICdesign
09-25-2009 10:42 PM


Re: Both Sides
Here is the perfect example of the smoke and mirrors trick you guys try to pull all the time.
Lots of small changes do not equal a huge leap into another brand new species. This has NEVER been observed and never will be because it is impossible.
Oh, you're one of those creationists. Not one of the 50% of creationists who admit that speciation has been observed and claim that it's an "important part of the creation model".
Why don't you fight it out with them while we laugh and eat popcorn?
If you think massive new information to the Genome is not required to produce a new feature in an organizm I highly recommend you head down to the libraries you keep refering to
We have seen organisms develop new features. Often. Repeatedly.
You demonstrate perfectly the strange paradox of creationism --- that creationists are obsessed with biology without ever having taken the slightest interest in it.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 83 of 121 (526157)
09-26-2009 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by ICdesign
09-25-2009 10:06 PM


Re: Both Sides
HO HUM.....OK, your right Coyote. The fossil record is chocked full of transitional forms that are undisputable
Of course.
and the science labs are bustling with scientist's and their mountians of proven tests of how to generate significant new information to a Genome.
Of course.
I mean, we have observed Macro-evolution in so many studies
Of course --- asuming that by "Macro-evolution" you mean "speciation".
its a miracle no one in the world has ever heard of it.
Ah, there you're wrong. You are extrapolation from your own ignorance of biology to everyone else in the world. But if you think about it, there are lots of people who know more about biology that you do. Biologists, for example.
Ohh, no more questions here Coyote. I'll just sit down and shut up after being put in my place like that.
That would be a good plan. While you're sitting there quietly, you might want to read a book on genetics.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 84 of 121 (526158)
09-26-2009 1:14 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by ICdesign
09-25-2009 11:01 PM


Re: Observed instances of speciation
I'm not even close to being wrong pal. You are the one trying to take the focus off the issue by bringing up the definition of kind. Its all part of the Darwinist trick. Lets blurr the definition of kind so we can avoid the issue.
What a comical falsehood.
But you must have noticed that in reality we keep trying to get you to give a precise definition of the terminology that you guys have invented to blur the issue.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by ICdesign, posted 09-25-2009 11:01 PM ICdesign has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ICdesign, posted 09-26-2009 12:47 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 113 of 121 (526379)
09-27-2009 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 85 by ICdesign
09-26-2009 12:47 PM


Re: Observed instances of speciation
I was looking at how much time you spend trying to defend evolution
and I can't help but wonder what kind of look you will have on your face when you are standing before Almighty God.
And I have observed how much time you have spent bearing false witness concerning subjects of which you are ignorant, and I can but wonder what God will have to say to you.
Variation within a kind is all part of the design. A dog has been and always will be a dog.
And a new species is a new species. Shall we trade truisms, or did you have a point?
All you have to do is look around you Doc.
And yet the people who actually spend their lives looking at biology --- they're called biologists --- think that creationism is inferior to, for example, bovine excrement, which can be put to a useful purpose as fertilizer.
The bottom line problem you Darwinist's have is where did the information come from? When you can come up with a proven solution
to that problem, get back to me.
Mutation. Duh.
Do you have any other really, really simple questions you want answering? Anything else that you could have found out in high school if you'd been paying attention?
Sheesh.

This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 115 of 121 (526384)
09-27-2009 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Adminnemooseus
09-27-2009 2:14 AM


Re: How about someone trying to truly get on-topic?
I think we've done the topic. If no creationist is going to hijack this thread for the purposes of a Gish Gallop, what else is there to discuss?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Adminnemooseus, posted 09-27-2009 2:14 AM Adminnemooseus has replied

Replies to this message:
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