A Modern Day Miracle Man - Establishes the Supernatural Realm

No I seek and embrace the truth, its more than what I can about you. You deny the truth, and use all kinds of grandiloquence to suppress it. No amount of evidence in favor of the supernatural realm, irregardless of how convincing it is, will ever be sufficient for you, all yow will do is find ways to explain it in natural terms even when it is impossible to do so. There just is no room for supernaturalism in your strictly materialistic world view that you are so religiously committed to to the point that you scorn and reject anything that opposes it. In the same vein you have taken a firm stand, without any support, that Joshua must be a charlatan, just because he performs impossible feats that oppose naturalism he must be a charlatan. I really think you're in denial of of the specificity of the prophecy, which states the exact dates on which aviation accidents were noted, the 17th the 19th and the 28th up to the end of the month.I challenge you to faithfully answer the questions underneath which will help to determine whether this was a vague or specific prophecy:1. a Did Joshua mention the 17th as the day of a possible aviation incident in his prophecy delivered on 11th January 2009 If no explain why.
b Was a crash reported on the 17th of January in accordance with the date TB Joshua gave just 6 days ago?2. a Did Joshua mention the 27th as the day of a possible aviation incident?
b Was a crash reported on the 17th of January in accordance with the date TB Joshua gave?3. a Did Joshua mention the 28th as the day of a possible aviation incident?
b Was a crash reported on the 28th of January in accordance with the date TB Joshua gave?3. a Did Joshua mention that this accidents will last up to the end of the month?
b Were crashes reported up to the end of the month?Once you answer this questions it should become clear that TB Joshua's prophecy isn't as vague as you're implying.If you want to argue that since TB Joshua didn't mention January as the month for the crashes in his prophecy he could have been talking of any month, then you must answer this question.Is it possible and common for humans to state dates without being specif about the month if they are alluding to the existing month?I think that it is not only possible but it happens, I do it too, and I have seen many people do it. And when people do mention dates without specifying the month they are almost always alluding to the existing month. And further evidence that TB Joshua was alluding to the month of January is given by this line he makes, "the whole thing from 17 to the end of the month" I'm surprised that you could contend the obvious fact that accidents are in a large part determined by the conscientiousness and responsibleness of the people involved. If drivers are more careful on the road accidents will be minimized if not they will sky-rocket, if a drunk pilot is allowed to handle a plane there's a good chance that his plane will go down before reaching his marked out destination. That is precisely my point this accidents happen randomly they don't have to happen on a fixed/given date and because of this as my calculations demonstrate there are many months that go by without witnessing any plane crashes pbs.org agrees with me "Most years no plane crashes occur, or at least very few. So the number of victims per year goes up radically in years when there are crashes." Therefore just to say the chances of a plane crash is 1/4 days is not enough pbs.org agrees with me on this point again, "Risk perception is not just a matter of the facts." and " Numbers are not the only waynot even the most important waywe judge what to be afraid of. Risk perception is not just a matter of the facts." because, "to calculate the risk per year can be misleading. One really bad year would skew the numbers toward the more frightening. A year with no crashes makes it look like it's zero." Therefore because the distribution of aviation incidents is random, as you admitted it is not so likely that an accident will occur on a specified date, especially a chain of specified dates like TB Joshua did.On the rarity of plane crashesI don't deny that plane crashes do occur, but just because something occurs it doesn't imply that its a common thing, Africans get eaten by lions and Indians by tigers, this events are rare but they do happen, the thing is they don't happen commonly but rarely, lottery wins happen but rarely, people get struck by lighting but rarely; there is a 1 in 25 million chances that you will be involved in a plane crash, despite this chance you can be involved in a plane crash, but its rare that you will get into a plane crash because they are very safe and don't frequently crash. These events happen but they are rare happenings. TB Joshua doesn't mention passengers per se, all he says is whoever would be flying. Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

can you give an argument that shows that it is ridiculous and nonsense its not enough to say it is? You must prove that assertion, how sure are you that he isn't really receiving this revelations from God? I can see that this is really upsetting you causing you to employ foul language, they say truth hurts, anyway, the prophecy you are referring to is remarkable in that it gives two locations in which floods are to occur, and just two days later floods occur in two locations that correspond to the locations given in his prophecy. Not everyone knows that. And he did not vaguely state that a flood would occur he gave two locations he clearly stated only one nation from Asia will be flooded and that's what happened two days later and he also stated that a tourist hot spot at the extreme end of the border. Giresun, the site of the second flood, is a province of turkey on the black sea coast. it was founded on a peninsula — the extreme end of the border exactly as Prophet T.B. Joshua had prophesied.

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No I seek and embrace the truth, its more than what I can about you. You deny the truth, and use all kinds of grandiloquence to suppress it. No amount of evidence in favor of the supernatural realm, irregardless of how convincing it is, will ever be sufficient for you, all yow will do is find ways to explain it in natural terms even when it is impossible to do so.

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Which is why you claimed that there were no crashes on the 29th January EVEN THOUGH YOU HAD ALREADY CITED TWO CRASHES on that date.

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I really think you're in denial of of the specificity of that particular prophecy, which states the exact dates on which aviation accidents were noted, the 17th the 19th and the 28th up to the end of the month.

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The fact - as I have said - is that the statement is hugely open to interpretation. If there had been no crashes on one of those days it would have been ignored (and the fact that one of the days did not have a crash which fully fitted the description was and is ignored). There was no explicit statement about the month, so if January had not fitted then February, March or even a later month could have been said to have been the month meant (as you have already shown).

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1. a Did Joshua mention the 17th as the day of a possible aviation incident in his prophecy delivered on 11th January 2009 If no explain why.
b Was a crash reported on the 17th of January in accordance with the date TB Joshua gave just 6 days ago?

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2. a Did Joshua mention the 27th as the day of a possible aviation incident?
b Was a crash reported on the 17th of January in accordance with the date TB Joshua gave?

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3. a Did Joshua mention the 28th as the day of a possible aviation incident?
b Was a crash reported on the 28th of January in accordance with the date TB Joshua gave?

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3. a Did Joshua mention that this accidents will last up to the end of the month?
b Were crashes reported up to the end of the month?

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Let us note that your questions admit that Joshua did NOT state which month he was referring to,The answers are yes except for 3b - no crash was reported for the 31st.Of course we can ask you why the crashes on the 15th were not mentioned (even though more people died in the Afghan crash than any of those "predicted" and the American crash involved a large passenger jet - instead of a helicopter, private plane or a cargo flight).

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Is it possible and common for humans to state dates without being specif about the month if they are alluding to the existing month?

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Just as it is possible for "prophecy" fans to decided that the month meant was whichever month fits the prediction best.

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I'm surprised that you could contend the obvious fact that accidents are in a large part determined by the conscientiousness and responsibleness of the people involved.

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I never said any such thing. The problem is relating this to the discussion (which you haven't done) AND it needs to be checked againt the actual figures (which you CERTAINLY haven't done).

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That is precisely my point this accidents happen randomly they don't have to happen on a fixed/given date and because of this as my calculations demonstrate there are many months that go by without witnessing any plane crashes

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Another demonstration of how much you care about the truth. Your calculations show no such thing. The actual figures - AS YOU KNOW - say otherwise. And you accuse me of lying ?

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pbs.org agrees with me "Most years no plane crashes occur, or at least very few. So the number of victims per year goes up radically in years when there are crashes."

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pbs.org must be counting even fewer crashes than planecrashinfo.org - because planecrashinfo.org shows crashes every month for 2007, 2008 and all of 2009 up to now. As you know. (Likely they exclude military, private and cargo flights for a start).

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I don't deny that plane crashes do occur, but just because something occurs it doesn't imply that its a common thing

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According to your own figures - which are probably a serious underestimate - the sort of crashes TB Joshua counts - happen quite frequently, with a mean of 1 per 4 days by the figures you gave.

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TB Joshua doesn't mention passengers per se, all he says is whoever would be flying.

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You miss the point - the crew would find it rather harder to miss the flight (and they would have to be replaced) - and NOBODY DIED.

I just did... Stating that there is going to be flooding somewhere in the world isn't a prophecy, it is a prediction based on natural weather patterns.

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This is not a prophecy, he's playing a game of odds.

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How can I prove something did not happen if it in fact did not happen? That would be the same as saying prove that no purple dinosaurs live in outer space. Secondly the burden of proof lies with you, as you are the one claiming that it is a revelation of God. It's just so silly. Using "foul" language does not in any sense denote that I am "upset," just absolutely incredulous at how a grown man can be so easily fooled. I just showed a video of him. Show where he gives two locations. Even supposing he did, all one has to do is look at the weather and can determine what is going to happen 2 days out. That's like predicting a hurricane is going to hit 2 days prior. NOT a prophecy, just technology. Like people in his congregation? Cedre, Asia is the largest continent on planet earth! Talk about being vague and unspecific! Not to mention it has high tourism year round. Had he said Giresun, Turkey was going to be hit a few months or years in advance, that would better serve to prove his "prophecies." Not "Asia" or 2 days in advance, because all you have to do is follow the weather.

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"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

This is a false statement its not hugely open to interpretation, clear dates are given and its clear also that the the prophecy was made for the January month. but you want to argue that it wasn't made for the January month because it was fulfilled during the January month, why else do you argue about the month? If suppose the crashes happened on the same dates but in February you would have argued that they were probably meant for January etc , your problem is you have no evidence that they weren't made for the January month but its clear from the passage that TB Joshua was referring to the same month in which he delivered the prophecy. Thank you for being truthful in your response to the questions I listed, and since you finally admitted that accidents did happen on the dates given by the prophet, you can not go on arguing that his prophecy was vague. Yes you sure can but its not a relevant question because the 15th is not part of the prophecy, the bottom line is TB Joshua prophecy is fulfilled very accurately. What more can I say here. I gave you facts provided on the Wikipedia about aviation accidents stating that 80% of crashes are a result of human error and more facts from another website saying the same thing. If 80% of crashes are a result of human error than how can human influence in crashes be irrelevant? Please just own up when you are wrong? You didn't answer my question, please answer my question. 25% is quite rare, look at the figures again only 5286 days out of a whooping 21199 days from 1950 up to the present time has had plane crashes, that means that 15913 days were accident free, how many months are those? assuming each month has got has 31 days we get 513 months without accidents of 631 months, subtracting the two figures we determine that only 118 months saw accidents, out of 631 months. It looks rare to me, if so many months could be without accidents, what then are the chances of any month witnessing a plane crash, also when being in plane crash is even less likely than winning the lottery or being struck by lighting National Safety Council. pbs.org agrees with me "Most years no plane crashes occur, or at least very few. So the number of victims per year goes up radically in years when there are crashes.". Whose lying? Joshua didn't guarantee say that any deaths would result from this crashesEdited by Cedre, : No reason given.

If its mere prediction than weather stations would have predicted these events, why not? Why didn't weather stations predict this events and save many lives. Its not mere prediction, you are kidding here. the fact is without evidence that TB Joshua guessed all of this events, quite accurately by the way, he said only one nation Fro Asia would be hit and only one nation was hit, not two not three, without any evidence you cannot claim he guessed it. You are mistaken about the burden of proof, its on you to prove that TB Joshua isn't receiving this revelations from God , the man has shown himself to be accurate concerning his prophecies, and he attributes his success to God, that's his evidence, you have to bring up enough counter evidence that all he is doing is guessing. The size of this places is irrelevant, the bottom line is just after two days of making his prophecy about a nation in Asia being struck by a flood, a flood struck India. You know what I think, I think the reason TB Joshua didn't give a specific time frame for this particular prophecy is because he knew it would be fulfilled just after two days. And he mentions tourist in relation to the second location by the way.

God also speaks through me. Throughout my life, I have received many visions which have miraculously come true. Recently, I received a vision about an accident.In my vision, I see a day, the day of the tragedy. The accident will occur on the Sabbath day. It will happen in the US and a family will be involved. By family, I mean a husband, wife, and one or two kids. The company of the car involved in the accident is Toyota. And I see the model of the car begins with a C. I hope we all will pray for the tragedy that will occur and that any families out there planning on driving on a Sunday will keep God in their hearts and minds.I hope that one day you will be my disciple, Cedre. I need supporters like you.Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.

The better question is why didn't HE warn the people of Asia of such impending doom? Or an even better question, why did TB's loving God kill all those people? If he knew only one Asian country was going to be hit, why couldn't he say which one? That's because he's not a prophet. He's just playing the odds. The only thing miraculous is that you believe this kind of nonsense. No my friend, the burden of proof lies with whom makes the declaration, which was you. You said this was a miracle and a revelation of God, all of which you can't prove. It absolutely is not irrelevant. If I'm standing on the edge of the Atlantic ocean and claim that my rock will hit the water, that doesn't take hardly any skill or accuracy, does it? If I narrow my throw and prediction to a tiny object floating hundreds of meters away, it then becomes much more difficult, no?Same principle here. Saying a flood is going to hit somewhere in Asia is like saying when day we're all going to die. It is an inevitability not an anomaly. Had he given the specific town well in advance, THAT might appear more miraculous. Wow!!! What a miracle! I think he didn't give a specific time or place because he's full of shit and he's just fleecing his flock. The man is a charlatan, Cedre. He's fleecing his own flock, just like Jesus warned about.

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"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

Your disciple?

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"Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many. -- Matthew 24:4-5

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"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams

Well, follower might be a better word. Either way, I expect Cedre to hail me as a prophet once my prophecy comes true.Also, I haven't said that I am the Christ. I'll leave that claim for my followers to make.Edited by Izanagi, : No reason given.

Again, you will manipulate facts to fit what you want to believe. Are you sure you want to go with that statement? The two floods that supposedly fit this supposed prophecy were Japan and Turkey. What continent is Japan in? Asia. Which continent is Turkey in? Asia.
You really should understand facts before you spout off.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Why didn't Joshua? He could have saved numerous lives if he actually made a prophecy. All he made was a guess based upon weather patterns and odds.

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Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

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This is a false statement its not hugely open to interpretation, clear dates are given and its clear also that the the prophecy was made for the January month. but you want to argue that it wasn't made for the January month because it was fulfilled during the January month, why else do you argue about the month?

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No, it is an absolutely true statement. And you completely miss the point of my argument. I say that if January had not worked out TB Joshua's supporters would go on to antoher month. And we know that because that is exactly the sort of argument you have already made in another case.

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Thank you for being truthful in your response to the questions I listed, and since you finally admitted that accidents did happen on the dates given by the prophet, you can not go on arguing that his prophecy was vague.

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Wrong. The vagueness is an objective fact. It does not go away just because January happened to work out (ans as we have seen, it worked out less well than you have tried to claim).

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Yes you sure can but its not a relevant question because the 15th is not part of the prophecy, the bottom line is TB Joshua prophecy is fulfilled very accurately.

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THe fact that it is not part of the prophect IS THE PROBLEM. It should have been. The crashes were as serious as those you claim as successes, thye happened aftwer the "prophecy" was given. And do not forget that you tried to claim that there were NO crahes on the 15th, even though I had already mentioned them here and they are easily found on planecrashinfo.com.

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What more can I say here.

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If it was releavant you could actually explain HOW it is relevant - something you have not yet done. Or more honestly you could admit that I was right, and that it was not relevant.

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I gave you facts provided on the Wikipedia about aviation accidents stating that 80% of crashes are a result of human error and more facts from another website saying the same thing. If 80% of crashes are a result of human error than how can human influence in crashes be irrelevant? Please just own up when you are wrong?

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Nothing you have said suggests that it has any relevance to the point we are discussing. Either explain how this figure actually affects the crash statistics (using REAL statistics, not your guesses) or admit that YOU were wrong.

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You didn't answer my question, please answer my question.

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The answer is implicit.

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25% is quite rare

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25% us quite common. And now we know that the REAL figure is significantly higher.

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only 5286 days out of a whooping 21199 days from 1950 up to the present time has had plane crashes, that means that 15913 days were accident free, how many months are those? ? assuming each month has got has 31 days we get 513 months without accidents of 631 months, subtracting the two figures we determine that only 118 months saw accidents, out of 631 months. It looks rare to me, if so many months could be without accidents, what then are the chances of any month witnessing a plane crash

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Simple counts tell you NOTHING about the distribution. Your whole argument is just a guess. However, we already know that there are no months without crashes in 2007, 2008 or (so far) in 2009. All you are demonstrating is that you do NOT care about the truth.

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also when being in plane crash is even less likely than winning the lottery or being struck by lighting

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Which is meaningless unless you take into account the number of flights and the number of passengers carried.

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http://www.nsc.org/research/odds.aspx. pbs.org agrees with me "Most years no plane crashes occur, or at least very few. So the number of victims per year goes up radically in years when there are crashes.". Whose lying?

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Since the site you referred to earlier - planecrashinfo.com - strongly contradicts this, something is wrong. It is pretty clear that Nova was restricting the figures to commercial passenger flights (which includes exactly NONE of the "successes" - there was one military helicopter and all the rest were light aircraft). So at the very least it is the wrong figure to use.

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Joshua didn't guarantee say that any deaths would result from this crashes

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Wrong. What does mean, if it does not refer to deaths ? Why bother to mention a flight with no fatalities while ignoring a flight with 13 deaths ?

You, sir, are a whackaloon.

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"The wretched world lies now under the tyranny of foolishness; things are believed by Christians of such absurdity as no one ever could aforetime induce the heathen to believe." - Agobard of Lyons, ca. 830 AD

I sure hope you're joking.

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"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence." --John Adams