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Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 629 of 687 (526547)
09-28-2009 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 628 by onifre
09-26-2009 1:10 AM


Re: be honest
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
No evidence has been presented for an alternative origin.
Yes, I have presented it, the BB. That you don't understand the theory and what it explains, doesn't matter. Nor does it affect the evidence. You are not qualified to challenge it either.
You asked for the evidence. The evidence is the BB. I won't entertain your silly argument about "beginnings."
The evidence is the BB, Period.
Are you saying your evidence for the origin of the universe is the BBT?
If you are there are a lot of people who disagree with you including cavediver and Son Goku.
Message 13
cavediver writes:
The Big Bang/Singularity is not the origin of the Universe,
Message 280
Son Goku writes:
Instead let's see what an actual cosmological textbook says:
To quote P.J.E. Peebles' Principles of Physical Cosmology page 6:
The familiar name for this picture, the "big bang" cosmological model, is unfortunate because it suggests we are identifying an event that triggered the expansion of the universe...... [this] is wrong.
If there were an instant,........,when our universe started expanding it is not in the cosmology now accepted.
[The standard model of cosmology] succesfully describes the evolution back to a time when the mean distance between conserved particles was some ten orders of magnitude smaller than it is now.
So what Peebles is saying is that the standard model of cosmology (sometimes called the Big Bang theory) describes the universe's early life. It starts at the point when particles were 10^10 times closer to each other than they are on average today. This is roughly 13.7 billion years ago. However it does not start at the beginning of the universe.
If you are claiming the BBT as your evidence for the origin of the universe you have presented no evidence.
The BBT does not start at the beginning of the universe therefore it does not cover the origin of the universe.
onifre writes:
Genesis 2:7 says God breathed life into a form and that form became a living being.
NO! It does not. It says MAN.
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
It says "living soul" which is a living breathing being according to the Hebrew word translated "living soul".
But your assertions have nothing to do with the beginning of life.
In 150 years of trying man with all his knowledge and equipment can not create life from non life.
It is a scientific fact life produces life, proved every second.
Therefore a life form was necessary for the first life to begin to exist on earth.
The Bible in Genesis 2:7 says God imparted life to man first.
Do you have a better explanation of how life began to exist on earth?
Your assertion: "he evolved"
onifre writes:
But all this is irrelevant, the point is that man doesn't come from dirt, he evolved.
It would be great if you could produce the scientific evidence of how life began to exist on earth, so you would have something to evolve.
If you can't do that then, Would you please present your scientific evidence including the immediate common ancestor of the great ape and man?
God Bless,
Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 628 by onifre, posted 09-26-2009 1:10 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 635 by onifre, posted 09-28-2009 4:40 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 630 of 687 (526560)
09-28-2009 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 621 by Izanagi
09-25-2009 12:00 AM


Re: space and time
Hi Izanagi,
Izanagi writes:
Does God have a physical existence? Because you have just argued God into a physical existence. I'll connect the dots for you using your own arguments:
Yes God has a physical existence. He came to earth in the form of a physical man. That man was crucified on a cross. That man was buried and rose again 3 days later. That man had a new body and still has it today. That man is coming back to earth one day and will rule and reign over the earth in a physical kingdom.
Izanagi writes:
The conclusion to draw from this is that because God exists in this Universe, God is composed of a physical substance. Essentially, God is a being roaming the Cosmos and that if we were somehow able to search the Universe, one day we would find God.
You don't have to search the universe to find God. You will stand before Him one day and bow your knee and declare that God exists.
Izanagi writes:
Using your own words, you have just argued that something must have created God. Remember, you argued that in order to exist, something must have a physicality to it. God exists, so God has a physicality. You have argued that God is alive because life must arise from life. And you have argued that life cannot arise from non-life. God is alive, has physical substance in our Universe, and is subject to the same rules of our Universe. One of the rules you argued for our Universe is that life cannot arise from non-life. My question to you is this:
What created God? How do you explain this apparent flaw in your thinking?
First God is alive because God is existence.
Second the creator of the universe is not subject to the rules He made.
Third since He is not of this universe He is not bound by the laws He wrote for this universe.
Why does God need a creator? God just is.
I have been told by Rahvin, Straggler, Catholic Scientist, and cavediver that the universe does not need a creator "It just is".
That puts us on an even faith based system.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 621 by Izanagi, posted 09-25-2009 12:00 AM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 631 by Izanagi, posted 09-28-2009 11:39 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 632 of 687 (526573)
09-28-2009 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 616 by Modulous
09-24-2009 8:53 PM


Re: Light
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes:
I was talking about measuring the speed of light when one is travelling at some speed.
Yes, from a earth traveling at 67,108 mph.
Not taking into consideration the earth is moving with the sun at 560,000 mph as they journey around the milkyway as the milkyway journeys toward the great attractor at 1.3 million mph add in expansion and we are traveling 1.9 million mph sitting in the chair in front of our computer.
So all I wanted to know was how we measure the speed of the signal leaving the spaceship which is traveling at 150,000 km/s headed towards earth.
How do we determine the speed the signal is traveling away from the ship to be 300,000 km/s?
Modulous writes:
Do you know of an experiment which has measured the speed of light leaving us? If not, how can you say that reality proves this as false?
We provided a thought experiment earlier in our conversation.
The one where I was going the speed of light and you were one second behind me and turned on your light. I was traveling at 300,000 km/s and the light was one second behind me at 300,000 km/s.
You said the light could never catch me. Are you now changing your mind?
If it can't catch me from behind it can't run off and leave me if you are sitting right beside me either.
Unless you have an explanation of how it can.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 616 by Modulous, posted 09-24-2009 8:53 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 634 by Modulous, posted 09-28-2009 1:50 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 633 of 687 (526577)
09-28-2009 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 631 by Izanagi
09-28-2009 11:39 AM


Re: remake the universe
Hi Izanagi,
Izanagi writes:
Then why not remake the Universe. After Adam and Eve ate the apple, why not just start from scratch again and create two people who will obey when God says don't eat the apple from the tree of knowledge?
He did remake the earth after the first man and woman ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
You find that account recorded in Genesis 1:2 through Genesis 2:3.
Izanagi writes:
The standard answer is that doing that would be a violation of free will.
When God created man in His image in Genesis 1:27 He left free will intact. Man still chooses what he does or does not do.
Izanagi writes:
Why hasn't God created a better world with more obedient followers
God didn't mess the world up. Man did that by the choices he has made. God created a perfect universe in Genesis 1:1.
The only way He could make you more obedient is to take away your free will. Which He will not do.
Izanagi writes:
And don't tell me God has a plan,
No God does not have a plan.
God stands at the beginning and views the end as is satisfied with the results.
Izanagi writes:
God can definitely create a world better than ours. If you do argue that this is the best world God can imagine
Sure He can and did. God created a perfect universe man messed things up.
But God will create the universe you think He should have already created. It will be inhabited by people from this universe that chose to believe in Him and trust Him and follow Him.
In that universe there will be no pain, sickness, death, sorrow, and no one who has not accepted God's offer of a free full pardon.
Izanagi writes:
then tell me what does having babies die, women raped, people murdered in the most gruesome ways possible, losing a cherished family - tell me how all the pain and suffering in this world fit into God's grand plan?
As I said God does not have a plan.
All the things you talk about are inflicted by mankind not God.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 631 by Izanagi, posted 09-28-2009 11:39 AM Izanagi has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 639 by Izanagi, posted 09-29-2009 12:38 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 662 by caldron68, posted 09-30-2009 9:57 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 636 of 687 (526621)
09-28-2009 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 634 by Modulous
09-28-2009 1:50 PM


Re: ICANT's position, please answer the questions about it
Hi Mod,
Modulous writes:
I am asking because they will help clarify what your position actually is for me.
I can clarify my position for you. I don't have one yet.
I am working on it that is the reason I keep asking the dumb questions I ask.
From what I have read there are those who belive light has no speed limit. Some believe it is constant to the backbody of the universe. Some believe it is relative to each frame viewing it.
At the moment I would lean toward the speed of light being constant relative to the universe.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 634 by Modulous, posted 09-28-2009 1:50 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 644 by Modulous, posted 09-29-2009 6:26 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 637 of 687 (526629)
09-28-2009 8:27 PM
Reply to: Message 635 by onifre
09-28-2009 4:40 PM


Re: Life
Hi oni,
onifre writes:
Man evoled just like every other species, show me evidence for man being the first species. Are you actually saying that science hasn't shown that man was not the first species on earth?
Since science does not know how the universe began to exist. Science has no way of knowing when the universe began to exist.
You say we can deduce from cosmology that the universe is 13.7 billion years old.
Actually that is only as far as man can see.
In the message you are replying to I asked you:
Me writes:
It would be great if you could produce the scientific evidence of how life began to exist on earth, so you would have something to evolve.
If you can't do that then, Would you please present your scientific evidence including the immediate common ancestor of the great ape and man?
Since science does not know how life began to exist, how can science say what that life form was or when that first life began to exist.
You do remember my position is that the universe has always existed in some form. Just not necessarily as you see it today. It could have been melted down and remodeled thousands of times.
The Bible tells me it was created 1 time in Genesis 1:1 which took place in the beginning. If I go with my Hebrew teachers translation of the word translated beginning as beginnings. That would cover as many beginnings as there was.
The Bible then tells me there was a remodeling job that took place in Genesis 1:2 - Genesis 2:3.
2 Peter 3:10-13 tells me it is going to melt one more time, and there is going to be a new heaven and earth.
So your assertions does not mean anything except they are your opinions. Which you are welcome to have.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 635 by onifre, posted 09-28-2009 4:40 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 638 by onifre, posted 09-28-2009 8:45 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 664 of 687 (527494)
10-01-2009 2:12 PM


ICANT'S POSITION
Hi All,
Summation of ICANT'S position.
1. What is the age of the universe?
The universe has existed from it's beginning to exist in the beginnings. Genesis 1:1
I do not believe it has always existed in the form we see it today.
I will leave that up to what the universe reveals to us.
2. What is the age of the earth?
I believe the earth has existed from it's beginning to exist in the beginnings. Genesis 1:1
I do not believe it has always existed in the form we see it today.
I will leave that up to what the earth tells us.
3. What is the age of the first life on earth?
I believe man was the first creature formed and God breathed life into that form and it became a living soul in the beginnings of the heaven and the earth beginning to exist. Genesis 2:7.
4. What is the age of Modern humans?
I believe modern humans began to exist at least 6,000 years ago and it could have been longer as we only have man's figures to give us a time.
5. Do the modern great apes (gorillas, chimps) and modern humans have a common ancestor?
I believe the only thing they have in common is a creator that created them out of the same substance.
In this thread I asked for the scientific, verifiable, evidence of a common ancestor and none was presented.
6. Does time exist as a property of the universe?
No, time is a concept of man invented to measure existence/duration.
7. Is length, width, and height a property of the universe?
No, they are a concept of man invented to measure the size of objects as well as the space between objects.
8. How did the universe begin to exist?
ICANT'S answer In the beginning God created the Heaven and the Earth. Genesis 1:1.
The correct scientific answer is, "We don't know".
There are those who hold other views but have presented no evidence to support their view.
No thing has ever caused something to begin to exist.
The universe exists.
Therefore something or someone had to cause the universe to begin to exist.
9. How did life begin to exist on earth?
ICANT'S answer, God breathed life into a form he had formed from the dust of the ground and that form became a living soul. Genesis 2:7.
The correct scientific answer is, "We don't know".
Life exists on earth.
It is a scientific fact life produces life and is proved by humans 264 times per minute in the world.
It is a scientific fact in 150 years of trying to produce life with the best equipment by the best scientist non life has never produced life.
Therefore life on earth requires a life form to impart life for us to exist.
Anyone can believe anything they desire to believe as we all have free will to do so.
The facts are that:
There is no scientific verifiable evidence of how the universe began to exist.
There is no scientific verifiable evidence of how life on earth began to exist.
Therefore anything you believe concerning the universe and life in it is based upon your faith in what you have been told or have read.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by caldron68, posted 10-01-2009 7:50 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 667 by lyx2no, posted 10-02-2009 8:46 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 669 by Aurora, posted 02-02-2011 9:29 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 670 of 687 (603031)
02-02-2011 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 669 by Aurora
02-02-2011 9:29 AM


Re: ICANT'S POSITION
Hi Aurora,
I thought this thread was closed a long time ago.
But welcome to EvC.
Aurora writes:
It is true that from ancient times till today, anything we believe concerning the universe and life in it is based upon our faith in what we have been told or have read.
Glad to see you agree we learn from previous information.
Aurora writes:
But sometimes what is written or what we are told to belief are wrong.
Which is true of all types of information that has been passed on to us.
Aurora writes:
Earlier people believe the earth was flat, the sun revolves around the earth, etc.
If science and the Bible are correct all the land mass was in one place at one time as my avatar shows.
If you had lived at that time and could travel all the way around the coast line and could travel across it at any point, what would lead you to believe it was anything other than flat?
The sun does revolve around the earth. It just takes 200 million years to make the trip. Let me explain: The sun revolves around the earth every 365 1/4 days more or less. The sun also circles the galaxy every 200 million years which would make the sun revolve around the earth one time to accomplish its revolution around the galaxy.
Aurora writes:
It is through science (not from the bible) that we learn more about the universe and life on earth.
That is your opinion.
The Bible tells me what caused the universe and earth to begin to exist.
Science says "we don't know".
The Bible tells me what caused life to begin to exist.
Science says "we don't know".
Now if you have better scientific information to be considered I would love to be able to read about it.
Some scientist are working on those answers.
A lot of people and some scientist have concluded that some of the hypothesis of how the universe, earth, and life began to exist are a proven fact and are no longer looking for the answers.
Many have accepted by faith what they have been told.
That falls under the statement: "But sometimes what is written or what we are told to belief are wrong." (belief should be believe)
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 669 by Aurora, posted 02-02-2011 9:29 AM Aurora has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 671 by Panda, posted 02-02-2011 11:58 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 672 by bluescat48, posted 02-02-2011 12:25 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 673 by Aurora, posted 02-02-2011 2:42 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 674 of 687 (603081)
02-02-2011 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 673 by Aurora
02-02-2011 2:42 PM


Re: ICANT'S POSITION
Hi Aurora,
Aurora writes:
I'm sorry for not knowing that this thread was closed a long time ago. I thought the moderator would announce the closure in the last post. Anyway thanks for the response.
Its not closed or you could not have posted to it.
Aurora writes:
Excuse my knowledge in astronomy but if what you mention is the Solar System's galactic year, moving at 220 km/second and completing one revolution every 225—250 million years, doesn't it include the Earth, then how can we say the sun revolves around the earth.
I was the one being careless.
Now as to how can the sun make one revolution around the earth in its journey.
Draw a circle on a piece of paper put the numbers of a clock on it. Then take two objects and place one of them on 12. Take the other and make a complete revolution around the one on 12. Then move the one on 12 to the number 1 and repeat the process and continue doing so for each number until you return to 12.
Now if you can you explain to me how you can accomplish this feat without the object that stayed on the numbers making a circle around the object that was orbiting around it I will retract my statement. "The sun does revolve around the earth."
Aurora writes:
Yes, I admire their faith and wish they keep it to themselves and not try prove the accuracy of the Bible through pseudoscience.
I was not refering to the faith of the belivers in the Bible.
I was refering in the faith of those who trust in a science that has no answer for how the universe and life began to exist. If you don't know how they began to exist you can not be certain how we got from there to here.
We may be brains in a jar that is being controled and fed all our memories and thoughts by and experimenter in a lab experiment that began last week.
But I do believe the Bible when properly understood has no problems with science except the how of the begining to exist of the universe and life.
The earth is old as is the universe. They were both created in the same light period that ended with the darkness of Genesis 1:2.
Life has been on the earth for a very long time.
If fact long enough for the material that forms our oil, natural gas, and coal to be produced and covered by miles of material that turned into rock.
The Bible is the only source that tells me the how, and why we exist.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 673 by Aurora, posted 02-02-2011 2:42 PM Aurora has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 676 by Taq, posted 02-02-2011 5:26 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied
 Message 677 by Aurora, posted 02-03-2011 2:46 PM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 675 of 687 (603082)
02-02-2011 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 671 by Panda
02-02-2011 11:58 AM


Re: ICANT'S POSITION
Hi Panda,
Panda writes:
Correct.
I finally got over the shock of someone agreeing with me that I finally got something right.
Thanks.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by Panda, posted 02-02-2011 11:58 AM Panda has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 679 of 687 (603328)
02-03-2011 8:26 PM
Reply to: Message 677 by Aurora
02-03-2011 2:46 PM


Re: ICANT'S POSITION
Hi Aurora,
Aurora writes:
Remember 'to revolve' means to orbit around a central point or an object.
I said: Now if you can you explain to me how you can accomplish this feat without the object that stayed on the numbers making a circle around the object that was orbiting around it I will retract my statement.
I did not say revolve I said make a circle around the orbiting object.
Now either the sun traverses around the Milkyway or it does not.
Since the earth is in the Milkyway wouldn't the sun have to make a circle around it?
If not it seems like the sun is then pushing the earth around the Milkyway.
Then it could be a myth as no one has hung around 250 million years to make sure it does.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 677 by Aurora, posted 02-03-2011 2:46 PM Aurora has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 680 by crashfrog, posted 02-03-2011 8:28 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 682 by Aurora, posted 02-04-2011 3:06 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 683 by Taq, posted 02-04-2011 5:03 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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