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EvC Forum Science Forums The Bible: Accuracy and Inerrancy

# ICANT'S position in the creation debate

Author Topic:   ICANT'S position in the creation debate
greyseal
Member (Idle past 2089 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009

 Message 529 of 687 (524480) 09-17-2009 2:39 AM Reply to: Message 518 by ICANT09-16-2009 10:24 AM

Re: Time changes
ICANT writes:

 greyseal writes:er, nooooo...I'm saying that the ones in space have to be adjusted for time dilation, for really realz.

Are you saying then that time dilation is a fancy way of saying the effects of gravity and velocity cause the clocks at height to run slower than those closer to the source of gravity?

it's not "height", and they're not technically running slower, but...yes.

Stay with me, I'll go through it slowly (and hope I get it right):

gravity is acceleration (you'll have to take my word for this, but you're being accelerated towards the earth at a pull of 1G right now, for instance). Gravity is a sort of velocity change (therefore, relative motion).

Both relative motion and therefore acceleration (which is a change in relative motion) will throw off two clocks in differing frames of reference.

The clocks in space are not moving relative to the surface of the Earth, but AND they ARE in a weaker gravitational field and they ARE moving really quick.

The clocks in the planes could fly as low as they chose (practical limits aside) BUT they were also moving relative to the "stationary" clock on the ground.

Both situations offer differing frames of reference when comparing two clocks with each other.

Since our need with GPS is to be accurate in a frame of reference placed squarely on the ground, and our clocks are in a different frame of reference, we need to take time dilation into account - if we didn't, relativity would be wrong. We do, so something's up - and the equations given to us by Einstein work remarkably well for being a shot in the dark, no?

Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.

Edited by greyseal, : (small) modification!

 This message is a reply to: Message 518 by ICANT, posted 09-16-2009 10:24 AM ICANT has not yet responded

 Replies to this message: Message 530 by JonF, posted 09-17-2009 8:24 AM greyseal has responded

greyseal
Member (Idle past 2089 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009

 Message 531 of 687 (524518) 09-17-2009 9:27 AM Reply to: Message 530 by JonF09-17-2009 8:24 AM

Re: Time changes
Oops! I got a theoretical clock-in-orbit and the real-life-GPS satellites mixed up.

Of course, moving relative to the ground will create a bigger difference than not, so that hardly negates the point, but - I was wrong!

 This message is a reply to: Message 530 by JonF, posted 09-17-2009 8:24 AM JonF has not yet responded

greyseal
Member (Idle past 2089 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009

 Message 623 of 687 (525890) 09-25-2009 7:24 AM Reply to: Message 605 by ICANT09-23-2009 10:08 AM

Re: space and time
 Light is made of particles and waves.

But particles and waves are a concept of man! Therefore light doesn't exist!

chronotons!

 Izanagi writes:Since gravity is a concept of man, gravity did not exist before man conceptualize gravity.

Gravity is another kettle of fish. Some say it is made of particles called gravitons, some say it is a force, but no one really knows.

no, what is gravity MADE of?

You don't know?

Can't you hold a cup of gravity?

GRAVITY DOESN'T EXIST!!!

how can you not get this?

 This message is a reply to: Message 605 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2009 10:08 AM ICANT has not yet responded

 Replies to this message: Message 624 by Izanagi, posted 09-25-2009 9:56 AM greyseal has responded

greyseal
Member (Idle past 2089 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009

 Message 625 of 687 (525982) 09-25-2009 11:41 AM Reply to: Message 624 by Izanagi09-25-2009 9:56 AM

Re: space and time
 You're wrong. Gravity is the force of angels pushing down on us. Haven't you heard of Intelligent Falling? Without those angels, we would be floating off the earth.

Yes! finally somebody who gets it!

Time is obviously illusory. we don't know what it's made of, so it must just be a figment of the mind.

Gravity is exactly the same way! Nobody has ever seen one of these fabled "gravitons" so it's obviously just a creation of mankind too in exactly the same way!

It all makes so much sense now.

I reckon, you know, it could be those angels and devils that sit on your shoulders and tell you right from wrong...

Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.

 This message is a reply to: Message 624 by Izanagi, posted 09-25-2009 9:56 AM Izanagi has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 626 by Izanagi, posted 09-25-2009 1:22 PM greyseal has responded

greyseal
Member (Idle past 2089 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009

 Message 627 of 687 (526025) 09-25-2009 2:44 PM Reply to: Message 626 by Izanagi09-25-2009 1:22 PM

Re: space and time
 Space doesn't exist because Space isn't made of particles or waves. After all, space is the emptiness between particles, but ICANT says that anything that exists must be made of particles or waves.

can I get an AMEN!

 Therefore, there is no emptiness between particles.

Truly, space does not exist - we all live in an infinitely dense point of no dimensions whatsoever (can anyone actually tell me what a Height is made of? No?) - maybe though...this one spot is just really, really big?

 ICANT says the Bible is true. In the bible, snakes can talk. All those times I have heard snakes hissing, I never knew that they were actually speaking a language. How deaf I was

I weep brother, I weep openly for the truth has set you free. Besides, I thought everyone knew they spoke parceltongue?

 And since Science is not trustworthy, I cannot bring myself to fly in a plane built by science. Next time I need to fly, I will fly in a plane built on faith that God will lift the plane into the air, move it across the globe, and set it down where I need to be.

It is by faith alone that they fly! nothing heavier than air can fly without the grace of god. Not that gravity (heretical, evil nonsense) exists of course.

Birds, it is so obvious, live in a perpetual state of grace where sin doesn't weigh them down.

 This message is a reply to: Message 626 by Izanagi, posted 09-25-2009 1:22 PM Izanagi has not yet responded

greyseal
Member (Idle past 2089 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009

 Message 643 of 687 (526711) 09-29-2009 6:10 AM Reply to: Message 642 by Guiri09-29-2009 5:42 AM

Re: Time changes
y hai thar. i c u liek time dilation.

http://triangulum.nl/Werkgroepen/document.../GPS%20essay.pdf

of course, that's math, it doesn't prove they DO - but I don't have a GPS satellite in my back pocket, so it'll have to do.

bye now!

 This message is a reply to: Message 642 by Guiri, posted 09-29-2009 5:42 AM Guiri has responded

 Replies to this message: Message 645 by Guiri, posted 09-29-2009 4:45 PM greyseal has responded

greyseal
Member (Idle past 2089 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009

 Message 653 of 687 (527006) 09-30-2009 1:44 AM Reply to: Message 645 by Guiri09-29-2009 4:45 PM

Re: Time changes
Hi,

1) it's not MY essay, it was merely one of the first I found discussing the subject

2) The action of the moon on GPS satellites is quite probably small enough that it doesn't affect the calculations - at some point you have to give up and say "margin of error". It's what you call "diminishing returns" - the payoff from taking it into account is either so small, or the difference so negligible, that it simply isn't worth it. The moon? How about the SUN? How about the four gas giants in our solar system? How about globular cluster M1? Why stop there? Perhaps you'd like the author to take into account all of the matter of the known universe?

When you've reached your quota of 10 posts, can we assume you'll leave, or stick around and attempt to learn something?

 This message is a reply to: Message 645 by Guiri, posted 09-29-2009 4:45 PM Guiri has not yet responded

greyseal
Member (Idle past 2089 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009

 Message 654 of 687 (527007) 09-30-2009 1:51 AM Reply to: Message 650 by Guiri09-29-2009 6:15 PM

Re: Time changes
 At any point in time there would always be a percentage of satellites on the other side of the earth completely devoid of lunar grabitational influence.

Just because I think you're somebody who is self-impressed with their own smarts but could one day make a difference to the world, I intend to give you a gentle nudge towards REAL math and science rather than homeschooled fail or religulous technobabble.

I'm sorry to break it to you, kid, but mass does NOT shield from the effects of gravity.

If you want proof, then you'd have to get a really big rock to stand on. If you don't float away, the mass of the Earth is still pulling on you.

You can measure this if you want - try to weigh yourself close to the earth's surface, then get on your mobile really big rock and weigh yourself again - you'll be the same weight.

The only reason this would change (as discussed) is if you are far enough OUT of the gravity well of the planet Earth that it's cumulative effect on you is diminished.

Gravity reduces according to the inverse square law - hence we probably don't need to take into account the moon and the sun.

And yes, I'm lazy, I'll leave that as an exercise for YOU since you're not happy with the theory and I am.

 This message is a reply to: Message 650 by Guiri, posted 09-29-2009 6:15 PM Guiri has not yet responded

 Replies to this message: Message 656 by cavediver, posted 09-30-2009 2:30 AM greyseal has not yet responded

greyseal
Member (Idle past 2089 days)
Posts: 464
Joined: 08-11-2009

 Message 660 of 687 (527043) 09-30-2009 5:50 AM Reply to: Message 658 by Izanagi09-30-2009 3:02 AM

post limit reached, obviously bailing
 You know, I was going to write a response to Guiri about time dilation and how the math works, but I'm not sure if it would be worth it.

Sigh. It wouldn't.

I think he's reached his limit of 10 posts needed to get his degree from the holy roller diploma mills.

I'd like to see the post though

Edited by greyseal, : No reason given.

 This message is a reply to: Message 658 by Izanagi, posted 09-30-2009 3:02 AM Izanagi has not yet responded

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