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Author Topic:   Living fossils expose evolution
AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 76 of 416 (527138)
09-30-2009 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 11:01 AM


Topic!
The topic here is "living fossils". We can stick to that and take transitionals to other threads. Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 11:01 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 11:12 AM AdminNosy has not replied

Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5214 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 77 of 416 (527141)
09-30-2009 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 11:03 AM


Re: Living fossils expose evolution??
Then we have this:
Which is right across the page from this:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 11:03 AM Calypsis4 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-30-2009 11:09 AM Calypsis4 has not replied
 Message 82 by Dr Jack, posted 09-30-2009 11:13 AM Calypsis4 has not replied
 Message 84 by Lithodid-Man, posted 09-30-2009 11:20 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 78 of 416 (527142)
09-30-2009 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 11:01 AM


Re: Dr. Carl Werner
So let the 'scientists' who believe in evolution do what I am doing. Let them post the transitions between each organism.
They have done so. There are these great things called "books", you might want to look at one.
However, this thread is for you to be wrong about "living fossils". If you want to make a fool of yourself over intermediate forms, please start a new thread.
Since there are seemingly no end to the number of fossils in the world then it should be no problem.
Actually, the number of fossils in the world is finite. But you're right in guessing that it's no problem.
Now, back to these "living fossils" that you wished to be wrong about.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 11:01 AM Calypsis4 has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 79 of 416 (527143)
09-30-2009 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 11:07 AM


Point?
And your point, if you had one, would be ... ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 11:07 AM Calypsis4 has not replied

Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5214 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 80 of 416 (527144)
09-30-2009 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by AdminNosy
09-30-2009 11:05 AM


Re: Topic!
The topic here is "living fossils". We can stick to that and take transitionals to other threads. Thank you.
Sir, respectfully; The whole point of the 'living fossil' issue is that there is no evolutionary change in any organisms into another kind of organism and there are NO transitional forms. The one cannot be separated from the other for that is the very point I am attempting to make here.
Thank you.

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 Message 76 by AdminNosy, posted 09-30-2009 11:05 AM AdminNosy has not replied

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 Message 83 by AdminNosy, posted 09-30-2009 11:17 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2931 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


(2)
Message 81 of 416 (527145)
09-30-2009 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 10:58 AM


Re: Living fossils expose evolution??
This is too funny! Your fossil "tiger" is a hyena. I cannot find the ref, but is one of those Miocene (iirc) mammal fossils that are so beautifully preserved. Look at the molars and the skull vault. Harun Yayha is a really bad source of info. You do know that hyena's and tiger's are different families, right?

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 10:58 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


(1)
Message 82 of 416 (527146)
09-30-2009 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 11:07 AM


Re: Living fossils expose evolution??
And you're going to claim these are the same "kind", right?
I'm going to ask you again, does being in different families make things different kinds?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 11:07 AM Calypsis4 has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 83 of 416 (527149)
09-30-2009 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 11:12 AM


Re: Topic!
Sir, respectfully; The whole point of the 'living fossil' issue is that there is no evolutionary change in any organisms into another kind of organism and there are NO transitional forms. The one cannot be separated from the other for that is the very point I am attempting to make here.
Thank yo
So the real point of your posts here is NOT that animals maintaining similar forms over a long time period is a problem for evolutionary biology? What you have been meaning to say is that they are evidence that NO forms of plants or animals change over long periods of time?
That appears to be a very different point than you started with.
It is so different in fact that a new thread would be appropriate.
Edited by AdminNosy, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 11:12 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 11:25 AM AdminNosy has replied
 Message 90 by Percy, posted 09-30-2009 12:01 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Lithodid-Man
Member (Idle past 2931 days)
Posts: 504
From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
Joined: 03-22-2004


(2)
Message 84 of 416 (527150)
09-30-2009 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 11:07 AM


Re: Living fossils expose evolution??
I wish I didn't have to go to work, I could do this all day!
Icarosaurus is a diapsid in the extinct order Eolacertilia. The modern flying lizard, Draco, is in the order Squamata which includes true lizards, worm lizards, and snakes. So while a similar gliding mechanism is used, these are very different 'kinds' of animals.

Doctor Bashir: "Of all the stories you told me, which were true and which weren't?"
Elim Garak: "My dear Doctor, they're all true"
Doctor Bashir: "Even the lies?"
Elim Garak: "Especially the lies"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 11:07 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 12:38 PM Lithodid-Man has replied

Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5214 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 85 of 416 (527151)
09-30-2009 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by Lithodid-Man
09-30-2009 10:51 AM


Re: Microbiology
If you have ever worked with bacteria, protists, and the like you will know that external appearance is probably the worst possible way to distinguish genera, families, sometimes even phyla
Appearance, function, homology, etc. are all factors. But the homology of organisms that have been dead for eons of time is very difficult unless we happen to come across a T-Rex with soft tissue and viable blood cells.
But the point of the bacterial fossil I posted from the lab of U Cal Berkeley above was made by U Cal Berekely; there is little difference. Bacterium are known to change within genetic limits but never become anything else but bacterium.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Lithodid-Man, posted 09-30-2009 10:51 AM Lithodid-Man has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Lithodid-Man, posted 09-30-2009 5:05 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5214 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 86 of 416 (527152)
09-30-2009 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by AdminNosy
09-30-2009 11:17 AM


Re: Topic!
So the real point of your posts here is NOT that animals maintaining similar forms over a long time period is a problem for evolutionary biology? What you have been meaning to say is that they are evidence that NO forms of plants or animals change over long periods of time?
That appears to be a very different point than you started with.
Pardon the expression but it appears that we are not on the same page. I don't know how to make my point clearer than I did above.
Have a nice day.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by AdminNosy, posted 09-30-2009 11:17 AM AdminNosy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by AdminNosy, posted 09-30-2009 11:55 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 5214 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 87 of 416 (527154)
09-30-2009 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by Lithodid-Man
09-30-2009 11:13 AM


Re: Living fossils expose evolution??
This is too funny! Your fossil "tiger" is a hyena. I cannot find the ref, but is one of those Miocene (iirc) mammal fossils that are so beautifully preserved. Look at the molars and the skull vault. Harun Yayha is a really bad source of info. You do know that hyena's and tiger's are different families, right?
Yes, but I do have the reference. It was from AOL pictures of tiger fossils, p. 3. not hyenas. If there was a mistake it was AOL and not I. I have not used 'Harun Yayha'.
Edited by AdminNosy, : To use "standard" quoting technique. Please use Peek to see how this was done.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by PaulK, posted 09-30-2009 11:45 AM Calypsis4 has not replied
 Message 91 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 12:02 PM Calypsis4 has not replied
 Message 120 by Theodoric, posted 09-30-2009 2:17 PM Calypsis4 has replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 88 of 416 (527155)
09-30-2009 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 11:39 AM


Re: Living fossils expose evolution??
quote:
Yes, but I do have the reference. It was from AOL pictures of tiger fossils, p. 3. not hyenas. If there was a mistake it was AOL and not I. I have not used 'Harun Yayha'.
Then why is there a "HY" watermark on your fossil "tiger" skull ?
(And why would AOL have a multi-page collection of pictures of tiger fossils ? I want to see the link).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 11:39 AM Calypsis4 has not replied

AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 89 of 416 (527158)
09-30-2009 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Calypsis4
09-30-2009 11:25 AM


Re: Topic!
Maybe it is just me but I'll persist so we can get the topic clarified.
It is possible that you are making one of two points:
1) If organisms remain the same (or similar 'enough') over geologic time that, by itself, represents a problem for biological evolution.
This is the point that at least a couple of others have assumed you were making and have pointed out to you that they believe it to be in error.
2)Some organisms staying pretty much the same over long periods of time shows that no organisms have changed in ways that you consider 'significant' (i.e.,. between "kinds")
This is the new point that you suddenly raised when you brought up transitionals.
They are not the same point.
Now which point are you trying to make? When we know that we can maintain the focus of this topic.
If you don't wish to clarify I will use my judgment and what others have understood to focus the topic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 11:25 AM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Calypsis4, posted 09-30-2009 12:08 PM AdminNosy has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 90 of 416 (527159)
09-30-2009 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by AdminNosy
09-30-2009 11:17 AM


Re: Topic!
Maybe Calypsis believes that a living fossil is an existing species that is unchanged from some long-ago ancestral species, but I'm not sure. There does seem to be something amiss in the way he's looking at things, because he's making triumphal observations that he seems to think are evidence against evolution, but no one else can figure out how. His misimpression that paleontologists haven't known for over a century that mammals coexisted with dinosaurs is also a bit weird.
Until we get a better idea of the nature of his misunderstandings it might not be possible to give him any feedback that would help him stay on-topic.
--Percy

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