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Author Topic:   Questions about the living cell
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 4453 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 46 of 182 (527569)
10-01-2009 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Parasomnium
10-01-2009 6:14 PM


Re: Facts?
(1) He's right. For your information, Cavediver is our resident physicist/cosmologist. He's a professional, he really knows what he's talking about here. (Hint: engage him about cells, you might stand a chance.)

Forget that. Is he out of his mind? I don't care what his qualifications are. If what he is saying were true then one of the most firmly established laws of science is in the trash can. Certainly the atom can be divided. We all know that. We know matter can be transformed but what he describes is not 'new' matter.

Edited by Calypsis4, : correction of quote


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 6:14 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2199
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 47 of 182 (527570)
10-01-2009 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:15 PM


Re: Some answers
Calypsis4 writes:

Give us an example of a living organism without it.

I'm afraid that's no longer possible. Life has progressed and the first primitive life-forms have been superceded without leaving a trace long ago.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:15 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:23 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2199
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 48 of 182 (527571)
10-01-2009 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:19 PM


Re: Facts?
Calypsis4 writes:

Forget that.

Good idea. Let's forget about the whole thing, because IT'S OFF-TOPIC.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:19 PM Calypsis4 has taken no action

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 4453 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 49 of 182 (527572)
10-01-2009 6:23 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Parasomnium
10-01-2009 6:20 PM


Re: Some answers
I'm afraid that's no longer possible. Life has progressed and the first primitive life-forms have been superceded without leaving a trace long ago.

When was it ever? Prove that it could have been.

Prove that early life was primitive/non-complex (in comparison to living cells).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 6:20 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 51 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 6:29 PM Calypsis4 has replied
 Message 52 by cavediver, posted 10-01-2009 6:32 PM Calypsis4 has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 2883 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(2)
Message 50 of 182 (527573)
10-01-2009 6:28 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:14 PM


Re: Facts?
"The first law of thermodynamics, an expression of the principle of conservation of energy, states that energy can be transformed (changed from one form to another), but cannot be created or destroyed". Wikipedia.

"The Laws of Thermodynamics
First law: Energy is conserved; it can be neither created nor destroyed." Purdue University science.

Now how many sources do I have to quote before you realize that you are in error and matter is NOT created anywhere

finding some that say "matter" might help your cause

And just so you know, not even energy is conserved in all cases - but that's a topic for bigger boys...

Not only so but the terminology 'pair creation' is innacurate.

Oh thank Allah for Christians who can show us physicists where we're going wrong

You're a hoot

Edited by cavediver, : You'd think I could spell physicist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:14 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 7:01 PM cavediver has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2199
Joined: 07-15-2003


(1)
Message 51 of 182 (527574)
10-01-2009 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:23 PM


Re: Some answers
Calypsis4 writes:

Prove that early life was primitive/non-complex (in comparison to living cells).

Absolute proof is impossible, but some evidential support can be gleaned from the fact that, for example, mitochondria have their own genetic material and are likely to be descendants of simple free living cells that were captured by other cells, thus creating a more complex combination.

Now do me a favour and prove that God created cells.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:23 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:43 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 2883 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 52 of 182 (527575)
10-01-2009 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:23 PM


Re: Some answers
When was it ever? Prove that it could have been.

at this stage we're more interested in looking at plausibility. Can we agree that we have a workable model of how protocells could have developed in the early earth?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:23 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:36 PM cavediver has taken no action
 Message 81 by cavediver, posted 10-02-2009 4:56 AM cavediver has taken no action

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 4453 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 53 of 182 (527576)
10-01-2009 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Parasomnium
10-01-2009 6:04 PM


Re: Facts?
To cut a long story short: the first law of thermodynamics says that God could not have created everything ex nihilo. Fine.

No, its related. If matter cannot be created nor create itself by natural/physical cause then it would necessitate a supernatural one.

God cannot be restricted by the laws that He Himself created. He is outside the physical realm and therefore natural law does not apply to Him.

The same is true with the first cell. Nature cannot make cells outside of already existing cells and no scientist has been able to produce the effect in the lab. Therefore the only option left is a supernatural creation of the cell in operable order.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 6:04 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 6:43 PM Calypsis4 has replied
 Message 58 by cavediver, posted 10-01-2009 6:50 PM Calypsis4 has taken no action

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 4453 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 54 of 182 (527577)
10-01-2009 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by cavediver
10-01-2009 6:32 PM


Re: Some answers
at this stage we're more interested in looking at plausibility. Can we agree that we have a workable model of how protocells could have developed in the early earth?

No.

What 'workable model'? Not a single experiment that science has ever performed has produced a single living cell; Miller/Urey or Szostak notwithstanding.


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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2199
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 55 of 182 (527578)
10-01-2009 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:33 PM


Re: Facts?
Calypsis4 writes:

Nature cannot make cells outside of already existing cells and no scientist has been able to produce the effect in the lab. Therefore the only option left is a supernatural creation of the cell in operable order.

Or a natural creation of simpler cell-like structure that do not yet operate like modern cell, but have the capacity to evolve to such more complex cells. Like in Cavediver's film.

You shouldn't give up so soon, only to reach for the supernatural gambit. Nature is so much more interesting than the parochial God-story.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:33 PM Calypsis4 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:48 PM Parasomnium has replied

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 4453 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 56 of 182 (527579)
10-01-2009 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Parasomnium
10-01-2009 6:29 PM


Re: Some answers
Absolute proof is impossible, but some evidential support can be gleaned from the fact that, for example, mitochondria have their own genetic material and are likely to be descendants of simple free living cells that were captured by other cells, thus creating a more complex combination.

If you document that I am willing to read it but even that is a long way from functional DNA replication for proteins.

Now do me a favour and prove that God created cells.

Sure. In the same way I can firmly establish that Henry Ford is responsible for Ford vehicles on our roads. There was a written account of his life, personal witnesses who saw him and spoke of him. The same is true of God. He has a written account of who He is, what He did, and those who experienced His power (prophets & apostles.) He was manifest in the flesh among men, performed miracles and raised from the dead and appeared in the sight of hundreds of witnesses answering His promise to them that He would indeed rise from the dead.(Mark 10:34)

Is that sufficient?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 6:29 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 6:56 PM Calypsis4 has taken no action
 Message 61 by Granny Magda, posted 10-01-2009 6:58 PM Calypsis4 has replied

  
Calypsis4
Member (Idle past 4453 days)
Posts: 428
Joined: 09-29-2009


Message 57 of 182 (527580)
10-01-2009 6:48 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by Parasomnium
10-01-2009 6:43 PM


Re: Facts?
Or a natural creation of simpler cell-like structure that do not yet operate like modern cell, but have the capacity to evolve to such more complex cells. Like in Cavediver's film.

The You Tube production was guesswork. No one knows what the supposed first living cell was like or even if it was a eukaryote or a prokaryote.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 6:43 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by cavediver, posted 10-01-2009 6:52 PM Calypsis4 has taken no action
 Message 62 by Parasomnium, posted 10-01-2009 7:00 PM Calypsis4 has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 2883 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 58 of 182 (527581)
10-01-2009 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:33 PM


Re: Facts?
and no scientist has been able to produce the effect in the lab. Therefore the only option left is a supernatural creation of the cell in operable order.

By when did scientists have to produce life in a lab before supernatural creation became the only option left? Was it 50 years ago, 10 years ago, or just yesterday?

In the same way, how long did primative culture have to come up with an explanation for lightning, before supernatural act became the only option left?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:33 PM Calypsis4 has taken no action

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 2883 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 59 of 182 (527583)
10-01-2009 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:48 PM


Re: Facts?
The You Tube production was guesswork. No one knows what the supposed first living cell was like or even if it was a eukaryote or a prokaryote.

So, IF we have a scientifically plausible scenario for the creation of the first proto-cells, and potential pathways as to how those proto-cells became the first cells - BUT, we have no proof as to whether this scenario is actually true, THEN is a supernatural creation still the only real option?


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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2199
Joined: 07-15-2003


(1)
Message 60 of 182 (527585)
10-01-2009 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Calypsis4
10-01-2009 6:43 PM


Re: Some answers
Calypsis4 writes:

If you document that I am willing to read it

Google or wiki "Lynn Margulis". Fascinating stuff.

God [...] has a written account of who He is, what He did [etc.]

Is that sufficient?

I'm afraid not. Because God has some contenders. They're called Zeus, Wodan, Jupiter, Krishna, etc. They all have written accounts and witnesses. Moreover, the diverse accounts tell conflicting stories. Why, God himself has two conflicting accounts of his creation of the world. If a book constitutes proof, then my bookcase if full of proof of evolution.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Calypsis4, posted 10-01-2009 6:43 PM Calypsis4 has taken no action

  
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