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Author Topic:   A Modern Day Miracle Man - Establishes the Supernatural Realm
SammyJean
Member (Idle past 4073 days)
Posts: 87
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 03-28-2009


Message 129 of 297 (526033)
09-25-2009 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Cedre
09-25-2009 8:20 AM


Re: An honest look at the evidence
Cedre writes:
Hahaha, God isn't limited by time, it doesn't matter on what date the prayer was held, you are trying to imply that the prayer would only have been effective if it was said on the day of the accident. The prophet merely gave the people a date on which to pray. If you want to go into a discussion of what was the point of praying on any other day other than the day of the accident, we would begin speculating again. From the relevant passage its clear that 24 April was only the day on which the prayer was to be held, there is no indication in that passage that suggests that that was the day on which the prophecy would be fulfilled.
Why would TB Joshua have people pray if he already knows that the prayer will be ineffective?
Maybe the prayer was effective and the incident was suppose to take place on that Friday, but was thwarted because of the praying? We will never know.
Cedre writes:
I already said the prophecy in itself is a warning and any family that was planning to travel during that time would perceive if it as a warning. There is no need for him to be explicit. The prophecy serves as a warning it is saying what will happen if you board a claim on a Friday.
If the prophecy serves as a warning and the family heeds the warning and never boards the plane, then the prophecy will never be fulfilled? That would then make it not a prophecy at all, right?
I've done some digging on this TB Joshua, watched many of the videos on YouTube, and have found nothing convincing at all. Very little information is available about him that is not controlled, approved or released from his own organization. He is nothing but a conman and you have fallen for it hook line and sinker.
Did you really come here expecting to show us all that there is proof of the supernatural by pointing the way to a man that is an obvious fraud? You have done nothing but show me how terribly gullible you are!
--------------------------
BTW..did anyone else watch the video that Catholic Scientist posted in message 38? What's up with all the "leg cancer" ? Haha!!! What a charlitian. Just what you would expect from a third world country.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Cedre, posted 09-25-2009 8:20 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Cedre, posted 09-26-2009 5:58 AM SammyJean has replied

  
SammyJean
Member (Idle past 4073 days)
Posts: 87
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 03-28-2009


Message 176 of 297 (526280)
09-26-2009 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Cedre
09-26-2009 5:58 AM


Enough about plane crashes, now for some healing
Catholic Scientist posted a link to an excellent video on this subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7cGK9OodVY in message Message 38
Theodoric pointed out in message 50 that you have not responded to this post. I would like to bring this back up.
At the very end of the video it updates the status of the main people interviewed in the video:
quote:
John Rindel went for an AIDS test on April 12, He is still HIV positive.
Nine year-old Muller Starke went for medical tests on April 18, His heart condition remains unchanged.
Wium Basson died over the weekend.
I have been unable to find reliable, verifiable evidence that this man has cure even a single person. If you have some please produce it.
From this video and many others on YouTube, I've seen a large number of his followers requesting to be cured of "leg cancer" and "back cancer". I know that there is no such thing as "leg cancer"! Do you and his followers? There are cancers of the bone and soft tissue cancers such as sarcoma, oestema, or melamona that can affect the legs, but no "leg cancer".
If they can't even diagnose the inflection correctly, how will we know that he has cured anything?
I want to see outside unbiased doctors verify that these people have been cured, this does not include some man jumping around in front of the camera (that's owned and operated by TBJ's own organization at that) with a piece of paper or X-ray images that prove nothing.
...And what's up with all the demon possession? Is this a big problem in Nigeria and other third world countries?
I've never met anyone that is possessed by a demon. I've come across schizophrenics and others with severe mental disorders but never any bonafide demon possessed individuals. (yes, I am being sarcastic.)

"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." -Albert Einstein
"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief."
~ Gerry Spence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Cedre, posted 09-26-2009 5:58 AM Cedre has not replied

  
SammyJean
Member (Idle past 4073 days)
Posts: 87
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 03-28-2009


Message 214 of 297 (526869)
09-29-2009 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Cedre
09-29-2009 6:11 AM


Back to the healing
Cedre writes:
Okay I'm not closing down the thread I'm just wrapping up the part dealing with the prophecies, now we can invest more time in discussing the miracles that are said to happen at the SCOAN. I believe by now many of you have seen some of the healing clips and have already started to form your opinions about them, if you haven't viewed any yet, they are available on YouTube you can view many of them there.
Myself and others have already tried to get you to address questions about this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7cGK9OodVY Catholic Scientist posted the video in Message 38
At the very end of the video it updates the status of the main people interviewed in the video:
quote:
John Rindel went for an AIDS test on April 12, He is still HIV positive.
Nine year-old Muller Starke went for medical tests on April 18, His heart condition remains unchanged.
Wium Basson died over the weekend.
Theodoric has asked you to address the video here Message 50 and here Message 112
I asked you here Message 176
...but still you have not address it or my questions to you.
Once again:
SammyJean writes:
I have been unable to find reliable, verifiable evidence that this man has cure even a single person. If you have some please produce it.
From this video and many others on YouTube, I've seen a large number of his followers requesting to be cured of "leg cancer" and "back cancer". I know that there is no such thing as "leg cancer"! Do you and his followers? There are cancers of the bone and soft tissue cancers such as sarcoma, oestema, or melamona that can affect the legs, but no "leg cancer".
If they can't even diagnose the inflection correctly, how will we know that he has cured anything?
I want to see outside unbiased doctors verify that these people have been cured, this does not include some man jumping around in front of the camera (that's owned and operated by TBJ's own organization at that) with a piece of paper or X-ray images that prove nothing.
You do know what unbiased evidence is? If this man is a genuine healer there should be no problem producing real evidence that will satisfy sceptics like us.
I asked:
SammyJean writes:
...And what's up with all the demon possession? Is this a big problem in Nigeria and other third world countries?
I've never met anyone that is possessed by a demon. I've come across schizophrenics and others with severe mental disorders but never any bonafide demon possessed individuals. (yes, I am being sarcastic.)
You do know that demon possession is not listed in the DSM-IV published by the American Psychiatric Association or in the ICD-10 which is used by WHO member states as a international standard for diagnostic classification. You would think that with all that reports of demon possession around the world it would be on the lists of diseases and psychiatric disorders. But it's not!
What is on the DSM-IV is schizophrenia and dissociative identity disorder (and others) which have symptoms of hysteria, mania, psychosis, etc.
People with these mental health disorders often suffer from psychosis that include delusions and hallucinations. Many often believe that the voices that speak to them in their heads are demons, angels, god, etc. Does that mean that they are possessed? I don't think so and neither do psychiatrist.
What is really sad is that there are medications available that can help alleviate some of the symptoms and help people manage these diseases but they will never get the help they need believing there condition is caused by a demon invading their mind.
Really, really sad!
Edited by SammyJean, : missed a 'there' and an 's'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Cedre, posted 09-29-2009 6:11 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Cedre, posted 10-01-2009 5:57 AM SammyJean has replied

  
SammyJean
Member (Idle past 4073 days)
Posts: 87
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 03-28-2009


Message 220 of 297 (526916)
09-29-2009 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by Cedre
09-29-2009 9:35 AM


Cedre writes:
2) Why is TB Joshua "good" at predicting small, common, crashes (which likely affect nobody in his audience) but does not seem to have a record for predicting the big crashes where many people die ?
That is like asking why Jesus or the ancient prophets of God didn't predict the Jewish holocaust, or the world wars or the rise of Islam, a religion that is so antagonistic to the teachings of God in the bible, and is to blame for a lot of bloodshed in our present world, and is directly responsible for the persecution of Christians throughout the middle east and Muslim Africa.
Exactly! This is why I don't believe in ancient prophets, the Bible or TB Joshua!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by Cedre, posted 09-29-2009 9:35 AM Cedre has not replied

  
SammyJean
Member (Idle past 4073 days)
Posts: 87
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 03-28-2009


Message 274 of 297 (527319)
09-30-2009 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by Cedre
09-29-2009 10:39 AM


Yeah... right? Moving on...
Cedre writes:
In my earlier post I said that I wasn't going to waste another minute on the issue of TB Joshua's prophecies and I meant what I said, you can make of his prophecies whatever you want, it's all up to you. Let's move over to the next issue, his miracles.
So you keep saying that you want to move on to his miracles yet you have not addressed my post Message 214. One more time, please address my post!

"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." -Albert Einstein
"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief."
~ Gerry Spence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by Cedre, posted 09-29-2009 10:39 AM Cedre has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by Theodoric, posted 09-30-2009 7:01 PM SammyJean has not replied

  
SammyJean
Member (Idle past 4073 days)
Posts: 87
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 03-28-2009


Message 292 of 297 (527636)
10-02-2009 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 279 by Cedre
10-01-2009 5:57 AM


Re: Back to the healing
Cedre writes:
Healing can only come from the belief that God can. It is God's will to heal people, but their Faith/disbelief sometimes get in the way. Healing is not always instant. Sometimes it takes a period of time. Sometimes it never comes!I guess for these aforesaid individuals it never came perhaps due to their disbelieve or perhaps God said to them My grace is sufficient for you like he said to Paul when he prayed to be healed for his own medical condition, a thorn in his side.
If healing can only come from God to a person that truly believes than why go to TB Joshua? If it only takes truly believing that God can heal you than you wouldn't need TB Joshua at all, right?
You, being a Christian Cedre, how can you be sure that TB Joshua isn't a false prophet, as that bible warns Christians to be weary of?
--------------
I wanted to point out a couple of these so call miraculous videos that are on YouTube: Instant Baby video, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpO-ZmlMH0A
What exactly is so miraculous about this? How am I to know that this women wasn't in labor before the cameras where turned to her? Do you think just because she is there that she can't be in labor? Do you think that labor always has to be a lot of screaming and pain and pushing?
Well giving birth is not always such a big production with screaming and pain and pushing. If this woman is experienced in giving birth and has mastered the techniques of managing her own pain she would be so focused that you would never know she was in labor. I should know Cedre, I am a woman that has three sons. With my last boy, labor and deliver went so easy with him, I never made a sound other than my breathing and he was delivered with only two and a half pushes.
I've seen smoother births than this on video that never claimed to be miracles.
Moving on to "leg cancer" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpajHwwuzig
I don't even know where to been here. In the video that Catholic Scientist posted, I saw a bunch of these, people with 'leg cancer' on the prayer card (or cure card or whatever they call that paper that has their infliction written on it.) As I've mentioned in my other posts there is no such thing as "leg cancer", there are cancers that can effect the legs, cancers of the bone, sarcomas, etc. Cancers by definition are a class of diseases in which a group of cells display uncontrolled growth. All of these so called "cancers" in TBJ's videos appear to be ulcers, more likely caused by flesh eating bacterias and untreated sores.
What this man in the video has is not cancer. I can't be certain what this is (if it's even real) because the quality of the video is so crappy but it's definitely not "leg cancer". It appears more likely that it's an abscess from an infected puncture wound. If it's real at all, then it looks as if the abscess has rupture and the pink stuff is puss mixed with blood coming out of the wound.
What would cause the abscess to suddenly rupture, you may ask?
An increase in blood pressure from all the frenzied excitement going on around him coupled with the contraction of the calf muscle when he stands up on the leg.
Pow, abscess ruptures, pain is relieved and he can now walk on the leg. If he keeps the wound clean it might even heal up in a week. Nothing miraculous here!
Hey wait...is this the same floor that the woman gave birth on? eew!!!

"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." -Albert Einstein
"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief."
~ Gerry Spence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Cedre, posted 10-01-2009 5:57 AM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by Cedre, posted 10-02-2009 2:38 AM SammyJean has replied

  
SammyJean
Member (Idle past 4073 days)
Posts: 87
From: Fremont, CA, USA
Joined: 03-28-2009


Message 296 of 297 (527727)
10-02-2009 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Cedre
10-02-2009 2:38 AM


Re: Back to the healing
Cedre writes:
Do you have any proof for this assertion?
I don't need to give you proof of anything. You are the one that needs to show proof since you are the one making outlandish claims here.
Cedre writes:
It's highly unlikely that these women were already in labor before TB Joshua reached them, because a service at the SCOAN consist of two parts
Like I said earlier, it is completely possible for a woman to manage her labor pains, to the point that she can go on with doing what ever she is doing at the time, you (the outsider) would never know she's in labor.
Cedre writes:
and then all of sudden when the prophet starts praying for them their water breaks within seconds and the child is born subsequently.
This is not what I see in the video and that is what I'm going by, the video evidence. I see the camera is focused on another person and as soon as this woman starts to crown (baby's head starts to come out) TBJ and the camera crew rush over to her. He is obviously praying for some one else at the time the baby starts to come out.
Cedre writes:
The thing about these women is they go the SCOAN because of pregnancy complications, some of them cannot give birth naturally only through a cesarean section, because the baby is positioned wrongly, etc ,and only an operation will help them, they don't treat the SCOAN as a maternity ward they go there only in cases of birth difficulties.
This is not the case of this particular woman, is it? The video never showed her 'cure' request card. At the beginning there is a woman that's card said that the baby was in the wrong position but this is not the one that has the baby, plus this women only looks to be in the first part of her third trimester or is carrying a small fetus. Cases like these it only takes a good midwife to coax the baby into proper position.
Cedre writes:
There is no evidence that the women who have given birth at the SCOAN were already mothers prior to giving birth there. but what about the instant births, I understand that child birth is a process and it can last for hours, I have heard other cases of instant births but they are very rare, and I could hardly find any reports of them on the web.
...and there is no evidence that she hasn't given birth twelve times is there?
Yes, labor most often does last hours. I'm not the one claiming instant births, I'm claiming the women are well focused at managing there own labor pains and nothing more.
Cedre writes:
as to the leg cancers, they are probably tumorous outgrowths on the legs and therefore are said to be cancers not that they are the result of a leg cancer, but sores that result from cancer. That these aren't actual cancerous wounds without any proof is just another of your increasing claims. You must also know that the SCOAN doesn't put anyone on the prayer line unless they come with a doctor's certificate showing what their problem is. this is a requirement. There is also a form that all international visitors should fill out, on it they must state exactly what their problem is and bring along the necessary medical documents to confirm their conditons.
My increasing claims? Really? Once again, you are the one that has made the outlandish claims here. The videos that I have seen are not of necrotic tumors. Sometimes tumor growths can become necrotic near the surface of the skin and become infected with fungus or bacteria when they have grown to large or too fast for the angiogenesis that is required to maintain them. But this does not appear to be the case here. These don't appear to be tumors at all.
If these people have doctors that are claiming that these are cancers then they need to find a different doctor. True medical documentation would say what kind of cancer the person is suffering from, not just "leg cancer".
Cedre, if your going to convince me that this is a modern day miracle man you are going to have to do much better then this.
Remember it's you that has brought this up and made these claims. I remain totally unconvinced!
Edited by SammyJean, : No reason given.

"Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts." -Albert Einstein
"I would rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief."
~ Gerry Spence

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Cedre, posted 10-02-2009 2:38 AM Cedre has not replied

  
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